31. Jen Wright on How to Breathe for Long-Distance Running

Patrick McGilvray
My name is Patrick McGilvray. And I’m an experienced marathoner, ultra runner, Master Life Coach, and weight loss coach for runners. I’ve learned that running more and eating less does not work for weight loss, and that there’s a better way. Now I help runners like you to get leaner and get stronger, so you can run faster and run longer than you ever thought possible. This is Running Lean.

Hey there, and welcome to episode number 31 of Running Lean. My name is Patrick McGilvray. I’m your host and the weight loss coach for runners. And I’m on a mission to help you eat real food, lose weight, look better, feel better, run lighter, run longer, and run faster than ever before. And today, I’ve got an awesome interview with Jen Wright.

And if you’re not familiar with who Jen is, you will be by the end of this episode. But here’s a little bio. Jen is co founder of real human performance here in Cincinnati. And she specializes in things like stress management, performance, optimization, mind-body resilience training, and she spent 18 years in Health and Human performances as a science and tech advisor with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency or DARPA, the Defense Sciences Office and then later as a deputy at the Air Force Research Laboratory in the human performance wing. She’s kind of a big deal.

For the past 10 years she has been working as a post traumatic growth coach and mind-body researcher working in Trauma Recovery, addiction recovery and with other growth minded humans that value things like personal development. Jen believes in the human potential, and she believes that each of us deserves to learn how to self regulate. It’s a really cool interview, stick around for just a minute. Get to that in just a minute here.

Just a reminder that our next six week intensive weight loss masterclass for runners begins Monday, August 3, that’s just a few days from now, if you’re listening to this on Friday, when this comes out, you will learn how to become a fat-adapted runner, you will learn how to control your hunger so you don’t feel deprived.

Because you can’t feel hungry and deprived and lose weight, that doesn’t work. You will learn how to control your hormones, especially insulin to get your body into that optimal fat burning mode. You’re going to learn how to do intermittent fasting combined with low carbohydrate, high fat so that it’s like rocket fuel for your weight loss and for your energy.

You’re gonna learn the benefits of training in a fasted state and how to do it properly. You’re gonna learn how to fuel your body while you’re training while you’re doing your long runs and how to properly fuel for those events. And those longer events and races.

You’re gonna learn how to break through weight loss plateaus so that you’ll, you’ll be able to dial in your exact weight, your natural weight for good. You’re gonna learn how to break the emotional eating habit, how to incorporate strength training and explosive workouts into your training because let’s face it, most runners, we tend to just stay in that chronic cardio zone you got to break out of that.

You’re gonna learn how to lose weight, you’ll feel better, you’ll have more energy, you’ll enjoy eating again, you’ll learn how to eat real food. And you’ll run leaner, stronger, faster and longer. Most importantly, though, you’ll have the mindset you need to be able to sustain this for, for life.

Okay, this isn’t a temporary thing. It’s not a diet. We’re changing our lifestyles. We’ll teach you exactly how to do all that. And I wanted to share a quick story with you guys. Here’s a former student of this masterclass Amy, and she really recently posted in our Facebook group, some before and after pictures a little bit about her experience. And if you’re not in the Facebook group, I would encourage you to go check it out. Just search Facebook for the Running Lean community and join the group. It’s fun, it’s fun in the group. But here’s what Amy had to say.

She said, “A couple years ago, my running was struggling. I was slow and felt weighed down. My heart rate was over 200 most days while running, which is high. I was a mess. Fast forward a year to meeting Patrick who introduced me to a new way of eating and making me realize what my body really needs. Not just all pounding the pavement, but in my everyday life. I could never imagine cutting all the crap out and I never would have guessed eating high fat would help me be leaner faster and a fat burning machine or that my running would improve. Well, this past Saturday I ran a half marathon as a training run for my Marine Corps Marathon this October and since April I’ve cut out all the stuff my body doesn’t quote unquote need so no goos, no chews, and certainly no carbs that weighed me down from my run. I use a little bit of Gatorade diluted in water for hydration, but that was it. My running was effortless. I’m down over 30 pounds, and I’ve shaved off over a minute per mile. I’m feeling lean, and pretty badass these days.”

Amy, I am so proud of you. You’re so awesome. You’re badass, you totally are badass. And here’s the difference. You can do this if I can do this. If she can do it, you can do it. The only difference is Amy made a commitment. She made a commitment to make some big changes. Was it easy? No, it was challenging.

But I helped her get through all that challenge, all the tough stuff. Now, she’s on the other side of that. And she’s a lean, mean fat burning running machine. And if you want results like this, join us in our next master class starts Monday August 3, just go to innerfiretribe.com/masterclass to apply.

So here’s what Jen and I were talking about. We talk about how to breathe as a runner, which is, surprisingly, something I get a lot. It’s a question I get a lot from people, how do I breathe as I run? Breathing is hard. So we talked about that we talked about using breath as a way of releasing relieving stress.

By the way, Jen is a breathwork expert. She’s amazing. She’s so knowledgeable when it comes to breathing. So we kind of talk a lot about that today. She talks about using breath to promote mindful running. So how to get into that flow state. We talked about that a little bit. We talked about belly breathing versus chest breathing, like which is better, which is more recommended.

There seems to be some, you know, debate out there about this. We talked about how to get rid of side dishes and a bunch of other stuff. Jen is amazing. She’s an amazing human. She’s doing amazing work. She’s transforming lives. So I’m gonna stop talking. Let’s get into this interview.

Patrick McGilvray
Okay, today, I am talking to Jen right. Jen is co founder and co owner of real human performance here in Cincinnati. And today, we’re going to be talking about breathing, which is something we should all be doing, right. Thankfully, we already are.

But Jen is an expert when it comes to breathwork and breathing, and always has a lot of amazing, cool stuff to share. So Jen, why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about a little bit more about what you do.

Jen Wright
Yeah, thanks for the introduction for having me, Patrick, you one thing that wrath is something that we all have in common. And once we harness this literal energy potential, the breath for fuel for waste removal for self regulation, and just for overall efficiencies, we live with a completely different experience, a real, richer experience. So I’m excited to talk with you today and share what we know about breath and how it can literally shift us at the cellular level.

Patrick McGilvray
So you just mentioned something and I wasn’t going to talk about this. But now I have to ask it. So you mentioned like waste removal, though. You said something I heard recently, tell me if this is true, is that when we burn fat when we burn body fat, most of that gets eliminated from our body through our breath. Is that correct?

Jen Wright
So breath, that exhaled breath condensates one way you know our muscles when they’re working, whether it’s running or just for moving our muscles excrete CO2. And so it’s our job to then help that removal process when we’re high performers, especially when endurance athletes that just enjoy running, enjoy moving, that CO2 comes back to our lungs.

And it’s only then that the brain gets the signals that we need to breathe more to increase our oxygen intake. Lymph, the lymph itself, the lymphatic fluid is what carries away waste. It’s our waste removal system in our body. And there are two ways that lymph launches and three ways that lymph really gets removed.

And that is through our movement through local motion and through breathing. And then we can do specific techniques like lymph drainage and brushing and all of that. But breathing is one of these things that we’re already doing is foundational activities, this foundational movement that we do 20,000 times a day. It’s more than just oxygen exchange. It’s also waste removal.

Patrick McGilvray
That’s fascinating. And when I heard that, I was like wait, that can’t be right because it just seems crazy. Like we’re breathing out all this, all these toxins and all this waste and all our body fat is basically, you know, just being expelled through all these different manners which is it’s really fascinating. The body the human body is fascinating, Jen. Okay.

Jen Wright
It is so fascinating and we are designed to heal. In my previous life and working with the Defense Department one of the programs that I was involved with was looking at exhaled breath condensate and how each of us are so unique. We are as unique as we are with our fingerprints, our odor signature is equally unique.

And we look at odor signature to identify susceptibility and resistance to certain diseases. And what influences that is really the inner fire tribe tenets and the real human performance tenets is that it’s not just one note, or one node. It is our nutrition. And it is our movement. It’s our mindset, it’s the stress and how we how resilient we are to that stress. So those factors really make a difference on our odor signature. We know that if we even see it in commercial because stress, sweat smells different. One example…

Patrick McGilvray
For those of you listening, Jen is just checking her pits haha. So yeah, that’s very interesting. I have heard people say that when they start eating cleaner when they start eating a different kind of diet, they like don’t smell anymore. And it’s interesting. I mean, they still do, but it’s not strong and powerful like it used to be. And which makes sense, you know, because your body isn’t, it doesn’t have to, like release all these toxins and unnecessary things anymore. You know, you’re you’re you’re kind of back to homeostasis, right?

Jen Wright
Yeah, that’s right. And you mentioned nutrition. It’s similar when, when someone brings in the oxygen advantage and starts breathing for our fullest potential. The oxygen the oxygenation itself is it’s our foundation for cellular repair. Each cell receives these oxygen molecules and the bloodstream carries this oxygen through first to the organs because everything tends to the organs first organs demand the most.

So it goes to the organs first and through the major muscles through the fascia, rides the fluids, and eventually this oxygen arrives to every single cell for cellular repair. The blood production itself is such an interesting component of oxygenation.

Only in the last two years, have researchers discovered that the what do you want to call the blood cells, the stem cells that live we think that it’s the the white blood cells that are helping to create blood, but it’s actually these blood cells that live within our lungs, like 10 million cells, and even outside of our lungs that are, they’re doing the blood repair and the synthesis of blood itself.

So for organ fatality nutrition’s a core component. Before nutrition, our most foundational thing that we do before eating, before drinking water, is breathing. And, uh, you know, I like to say we can go technically weeks without food, only days without water, but really only minutes without oxygen.

And, oddly, this is getting into the subconscious mindset that lives in each of us. But oddly, it’s one of the last things that we tend to look at. When we’re looking at overall performance, although it’s the first and last thing we do in life. Rarely are we taught how to do it, to breathe.

Patrick McGilvray
Yeah. And gosh, you bring up a good point, which is like breathing is just one of those things that we don’t pay attention to. And we don’t practice how to do it better. And so when I’m, when I talk to runners, a lot of runners will say like, I’m having trouble breathing, like, what can I do to improve my breathing?

Like, should I be breathing from my chest or from my belly? Because you kind of hear different opinions on things like that. So as a runner, like, especially somebody that’s maybe just getting started running, and it seems like the breathing is the thing that’s keeping them from performing better or makes it hard. So the breathing is the thing. They identify as being like the running as hard because of the breathing part. What can we do about that?

Jen Wright
Well, noticing is the first step. That is, so we don’t want to take breath for granted. Until we are without it, we take it for granted that it’s just going to be there because it is, thankfully it’s automatic. And then when it’s short, when it’s cumbersome, when something takes our breath away.

We’ve all had that experience where we see something, hear something, remember something, and it literally, gut punch takes our breath away. And we’re left without our most basic resource, which is oxygen. And it really strikes at our core survival. And that is part of the rewiring of our stress response. It’s more than just running for breathing for running performance.

It really how do we source this oxygen, so that we can tend to our needs at the most basic level. So when we start to pay attention to this very fact that we can indeed, source our own resources that we can, can select are in modulate our ability to intake air differently, we start to receive it at the cellular level, but something in our mind happens as well.

There’s a shift in our mind that it’s a shift in our nervous system really towards a new rhythm towards regulation, where we adopt a mindset of like, I can, oh, I’ve got this I can, I can source what I need when I need it. And I can. So this is like an echo chamber, not just for the running trail, for the road, but just for life.

So first things first, is noticing when our breath is short, notice what takes our breath away. So breath in that moment becomes a clue, you know, our breathing our breath awareness is a clue. It’s a clue or cue to something that has changed. Something has rocked me off that state of homeostasis, off balance, and is demanding more from me.

Okay, no problem, we encounter this throughout the day, every day. So breath is not only a clue or cue, but then it also becomes the tool. So we’re talking about two different things, the potential of breath, disrupting the usual and then a breath also being a tool to be set in the moment and recharge throughout the day.

Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, and one thing I understand is that when you do start experiencing, like, let’s say shallow breathing, or, you know, you know, struggling with your breath, it can create a stressful environment. And your body releases cortisol. So now you’re like in that fight or flight kind of mode, and you’re putting yourself under more stress.

So I noticed this, when I’m running with other people, there are certain people that you know, you might be running next to them or behind them, and they sound like they’re going to die. You know, everybody’s running this comfortable pace. But then there’s that one person that is breathing, like, they sound like they’re going to die.

And I’m gonna imagine that they are kind of putting themselves under a lot of undue stress, and that they’re stressing themselves out at the cellular level, and stressing themselves out mentally. And running for them is going to be a lot harder than for the person that is practicing a more slow, steady and mindful approach to breathing while running.

Jen Wright
Absolutely, and thinking of this individual, or these experiences when you observe people breathing heavy. What do you notice about their gait? Are they also running heavy? Kind of clotting or maybe compensated running? Can you when you think back to running groups, if someone’s breathing really hard is their gait also?

Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, I mean, I think so. I mean, I think they’re, yeah, they look and sound like they are really struggling. So yeah, and I know people that run like that all the time. That’s their, like, default.

Jen Wright
And we do it that way until we learn a different way, especially for those of us that find such freedom in running and just in being, you know, just getting into that stride. So, you know, kudos to those of us that have been running heavy and fatiguing yourselves and sticking with it because you’re right there is an additional stress that is just inherent to our most basic thing that we do in life 20,000 times a day being stressed.

It’s the it’s the most, it’s the major movement that we do, we think of it as automatic, because it is yet is the most mechanical, and most chemical, mechanical, chemical process that’s happening when we intake the air for, for that breath, and each cell takes it oxygen and through a chemical process converts it to fuel, you know, it’s just, it’s a beautiful, brilliant design that we have here.

And, and we can be better at it, it’s just stepping into that place where it feels more comfortable. And literally, we are lifted, we’re propelled by the oxygen because it is our fuel. So when we think about that, in like when we’re walking through the grocery store, we get, you know, we get the oxygen advantages to that little lift, but how that translates to the gait, during running and your running stride and footstrike it’s so important because it literally lifts us.

It’s interesting to think about breath cadence and footstrike cadence and exercise physiologists belong studying the impact of stress of running, right, and the diaphragm plays a lot in that capacity to maintain structure and stability. And conversely, it also plays a lot in instability, if we’re just repeating the same patterns of exhaling on the same footstrike, for example, so we, we… My friend, I can talk about breath work for many hours. For today, how would you like to take our conversation? Would you like to talk about more of the diaphragm?

Patrick McGilvray
Well, like, I want to go back to that question I asked about the belly breathing versus the chest breathing, because there’s some different schools of thought on that. And I’ve heard people talk about both as being better. And what do you think about that?

Jen Wright
Breathing is good, breathing is good. And that’s, that’s good advice right there. And I tell people all the time, they’re like, it’s just hard to breathe and like, just make sure you’re breathing, you’re fine. As long as you’re breathing, you’re good.

The beauty is, is that our body breathes. Now we can breathe more efficiently. Some days, we’re breathing efficiently. And some days, we’re breathing less efficiently, suboptimally. And there’s a lot of information available out there about deep breathing, you know, slow, deep breathing, and I’m here to say that one, we’re still breathing, check. Two, there is some modulation here. Not all about slow, deep breathing, there are breaths that specifically activate our nervous system that give us a boost.

Because we need a boost when we need it, we need the energy when we need to boost. And there are other breaths that intentionally slow and move us towards restoration and activate our parasympathetic nervous system. So we have the ability to operate with breath. And to down regulate with breath.

I’ve got a trusty little diagram here that anyone that knows me, I’m holding the EU. And this literally is a U it’s a U shape and it depicts our autonomic nervous system will post in the comments, because our autonomic nervous system tells us how we’re going to feel. But it’s important to note that every inhale that we take is an activation of our nervous system. And every exhale that we take is settling of our nervous system.

So just by nature of working with complete breaths, and that’s I’m a proponent of Complete Breathing, is that it’s a complete cycle, it’s every inhale is sourcing the energy that we need the air to convert to the energy, and every complete exhale is ridding our body of old toxins and waste so that we can be, quote, empty, the container more ready to receive more of that oxygen.

Patrick McGilvray
And so the inhale is kind of activating that sympathetic nervous system, which is our kind of fight or flight, you know, nervous system in our necks. What’s that?

Jen Wright
The gas. Yeah, yes, they step on the gas..

Patrick McGilvray
Step on the gas, okay. And then the exhale activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which is our relaxation, you know, kind of mode. I always remember it by S for stress, P for peace, you know, and so that’s easy for me to remember sympathetic versus parasympathetic. So that’s really interesting. So then the argument about the belly breathing, chest breathing is just more about well whatever, like data isn’t as important, it sounds like what you’re saying?

Jen Wright
It’s all super important. And step one, we’re still breathing. Yes. Step two, we have so much, there’s so much to unpack here. But it’s really quite simple. The Complete Breathing is how we are born to breathe. Some of us were born with warning conditions where our breathing, our respiratory system is challenged in some way.

But most of us our respiratory system is challenged by sitting, by collapsing and so we are unable to access our fullest breath potential. So diaphragmatic breathing, chest breathing and clavicular breathing are three different places three zones or respiration that we have.

The diaphragm, the chest, and the clavicle. The Complete Breathing is a three part long breath, the low the mid the top lung, when we’re in fight or flight, we don’t need to be sourcing our breath from our belly.

Because we’re not looking to relax, we’re not looking to digest food in that moment, we’re actually just looking to survive. And so our breath becomes really short and shallow. We’ve all experienced that. And it’s when that becomes our default pattern, that the downstream effects are detrimental.

Because we’re just subsisting in that time, we’re just getting enough. And really, what would life look like, feel like when we are sourcing more, and at our most optimal state? Now for evading a lion, or if we are sprinting, for the finish line, diaphragmatic breathing is not going to be our natural go to place, we’re just going to be taking enough in so the oxygen exchange is just minimal. It’s just enough to get what we need to achieve the goal, which is to evade the line cross the finish line.

Patrick McGilvray
Right. Or if you’re like doing a heavy workout at the gym a bunch of heavy lifting, you know, you’re gonna, it’s gonna be higher, you know, right?

Jen Wright
So often, yes, because that’s what leads to, and it’s here at our thoracic cavity that really is that place where it’s, it’s the max expansion here, the ribcage. Taking a breath in here, the thoracic cavity for our big muscle movers when we’re doing the heavy lifting. When we’re looking to set a pace for a longer run then we can access the respiratory movement here at the thoracic cavity to help sustain that pace.

So we’re not just relying on the small muscles, the muscles, the intercostal muscles that live between the ribs, we can access the diaphragm, our major muscle, our major break breathing muscle, but it’s um, it’s not the only muscle that moves respiration, the diaphragm just happens to be the major muscle that moves respiration and helps us to maintain posture.

So sitting in as we do in our culture, as I am right now, we tend to overlook the access of this diaphragm, which I could go off. I love talking about breath, it is my favorite topic. And I just want to add this point.

Down here at our diaphragm when we breathe into the space of our diaphragm, it’s actually where serotonin and dopamine more than half our dopamine and serotonin is synthesized and created at in our in our viscera, in our in our belly, in our gut. And when we activate our diaphragmatic breathing or complete breaths, we’re helping that that process of synthesizing the dopamine and serotonin which then gets transported back up to our brain and distributed throughout our body. And who wants to feel good, you know? We want the ability to regulate, you know, the my life’s work. So it’s just one of those things where we aid the process.

Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, that diaphragmatic breathing is something that I’ve experimented with, with great results. So I’ll do some diaphragmatic breathing exercises like before a run where I’ll just sit with my back straight and just practice that deep belly breathing into that diaphragm. And, you know, just do you know, five minutes of that so it doesn’t take very long right.

Right, but it starts to put you into this calmer state of mind. And now I understand what’s happening more, because you just said, you know, you’re kind of releasing that dopamine, you’re getting some of that some of those that serotonin going.

I would imagine that this would be a great thing to do before run, and to practice on longer runs to. Because if you can access that sort of calming, relaxing, those chemicals, basically, you know, those calming relaxing chemicals into your body, then I would imagine running would be a little bit easier for you, especially on those longer runs when you’re out there for a couple of hours at a time.

So I love the the idea of using breathing, not just as a way of like, oh yeah, I got to live, you know, gotta get the air in or whatever, but as a way of reducing some stress and reducing the, the toughness of the run, you know, because you can actually, so I guess the two things.

So I’m hearing, because I’m gonna keep pushing this point here, Jen, you’re like a politician with your answers here. But I’m gonna say like, belly breathing is probably the better way to go. For our long distance runners, you know, which I’m just kind of, you know, I’m, making that that jump, you know, just just say that. So whatever, it’s all good.

But it does reduce the stress, and it puts you into this more calm state, where, you know, you got to, you got to save your energy, you know, it’s all about energy conversate conservation, when you’re out there for several hours, you’re running a marathon or something like that, you’ve got to conserve your energy.

And to have this high chest breathing, you know, the shoulders start to get scrunched up into the ears. You know, you’re activating that stress response. And you’re putting your body in undue amounts of stress, which is, you know, really going to use a lot of energy to be in that state right there.

Jen Wright
I think you, you phrase that beautifully, and I’ll add that it takes a lot of energy to contain all that. Just to sum it up. It takes a lot of energy to contain this manufactured support of bracing so that the hip doesn’t hurt, so that the stitches subside, you know, running with our fullest breath potential keeps us fueled up and stitch free.

And it’s all about working with the diaphragm, I would encourage the listeners to start where it is easier. You’re talking about priming your body and your oxygen supply. You’re talking about priming your system before you go on a run. Awesome. That’s something that free divers figured out, you know, eons ago.

Because you know, underwater, we don’t have the luxury of taking air when we need it, even if you know even just emergency breath. So free divers and swimmers had to figure out this oxygen conservation and exchange rates really innately and on land as we are and working with the forces of gravity as we do.

It’s really important for us to figure out just what that impact is because during inhalation, we create a container. There’s the expansion, but stability is created. And on exhalation, the diaphragm and the external intercostal muscles relax and the space around the thoracic cavity gets smaller, it gets pushed out.

Well that’s also where we are the most vulnerable that you will though the most, the least stable when on our exhale. So if we’re always foot striking on the beginning of our exhale, we’re creating even more of a clobbed fatigue to one side. Most runners scientific most runners are taught to breathe, inhale for two, exhale for two. That’s old school. And that even number of breathing makes it so that the exhale and the foot strike are always on the same side.

The numbers show that most runners exhale, the beginning of the exhale is on the foot strike on the right side, which means most runners get stitches on the right side. So it’s just interesting to think about as listeners is let’s start not worrying not when they’re middle of mile five, or on a long run. But let’s start while we’re walking. Let’s walk and practice this breathing thing. Let’s sit in a chair, lie down and practice this breathing thing. And just to really exercise the muscles and get them tuned, tuned and get the maps of how they were born, were born and designed to function.

Patrick McGilvray
When I was training for my 100 miler a couple of years ago, I remember I came to you and I was like, Jen, I need some help breathing. Just anything you can tell me that will make running just a little bit easier, I need every little tweak I can get for this thing. And you gave me some advice, that was amazing.

And it was basically, like, try to stop doing the breathing on the to like every other foot strike, and switch it to three. So that you know, your in breath is on one foot, and then the next time it’s on the next and so you’re, you’re more balanced that way. And I practiced that and it was actually really hard to do at first, you know, it took a little bit of, you know, there’s a little mental like, because I’m just so used to just doing it the same way all the time.

And it requires you to slow down your breathing, because you’re not, you’re gonna breathe. You have to breathe slower in order to do it this way. But it was amazing. It allowed me to really be in a more peaceful state running it really, it was awesome. So that’s good advice.

What is a side stitch? Exactly?

Jen Wright
Ah crap, you know, it’s where the muscle’s contracting really fast, you know, it’s just spasming.

Patrick McGilvray
What muscles is that? Exactly? Do you know?

Jen Wright
It depends, but a lot of the time, it’s the diaphragm itself.

Patrick McGilvray
Okay, because I know that one way of getting rid of a side stitch very quickly, is to breathe out really fast and hard. Like you’re blowing out candles on a birthday cake. You know, just as a lot of air really fast do that, like three times and then the stitches goes away. So

Jen Wright
Because you’re filling your body was oxygen, you know, it’s and it’s and you’re exhaling out old condensate, old CO2, you’re getting it out of the system and pushing out rather quickly. Those the old old stuff.

Patrick McGilvray
Okay, so it is like a diaphragm thing that’s really fascinating. This whole breathing thing.

Jen Wright
You brought up when you’re training for your 100 miler, because I just thought you were so brave into being open minded into considering a different way before such a, you know, a big event for you. And knowing how important the breath is, you’re right, it does take; we get used to it just happening.

And to bring awareness to it, it does insert a level of pause kind of slows it down. What’s happening in the brain is it what’s happening in the brain is happening at the level of the brainstem. So again, this is our basic survival brain. And it’s in the medulla.

The prebotzinger complex is basically like our it’s like a pacemaker for breaths. And so when that when that CO2 gets back to our lungs, because we’ve been breathing deeply enough to push the co2 back to the lungs to be expel, the messages get the signals are picked up from the medulla that sets our rhythm. The prebotzinger complex, the prebot-c is actually our our rhythm said it so it’s our pacer. And so when we get into a rhythm of breathing, the brain helps us out. Chicken or the egg, but it’s uh, it’s one of those things where it literally, it literally just makes life easier, makes running easier.

Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, and I will, I will say that like that, slowing down the breathing and doing that diaphragmatic breathing when you’re running at all, even if it’s just a short run is it makes a difference, it makes a noticeable difference that you can go out there and do you know, a five mile run at a slower pace.

And it can be you can make it as hard or as easy as you want it to be. And I’m not talking necessarily speed because you can kind of maintain the same speed but you can make it harder or easier. Just by slowing down that breath. It’s wild. It’s wild stuff. There’s a beautiful book that talks a lot about this called, oh my gosh, what is it called? Mindful Running.

And it just talks about getting into that sort of flow state while running, and she talks a lot about the diaphragmatic breathing and, and that’s kind of where I learned the exercises to do before going out running. It’s a really great book, I think definitely people get a lot out of it.

But the part that I liked about it is how she talks about slowing down, you know, you start getting more oxygen exchange, you start, you know, becoming into this, like more peaceful kind of flow state that she calls it, which is just being mindful, you’re being mindful of your breathing, you can just kind of focus on your breathing, you’re being mindful of your body, you’re being mindful of your feet hitting the ground, you can actually take in what’s happening around you.

And it all starts with the breath. And you’re always kind of coming back to the breath, as in meditation, when you’re running in, that becomes your sort of anchor, you know, and so you can be mindful of what’s happening. And then you’re not focused on how hard this is, you’re not focused on what you’re going to do.

You know, later today, what’s on your to do list, you’re just being in the moment, and into this flow state, which is such a beautiful thing. And it all centers around the breath, just like mindful meditation centers around the using the breath as the anchor, you can do the same thing while you’re running, and get into this more relaxed, more peaceful state in I say this, because I want to enjoy running, I don’t run it one running to be hard.

And so when I learn things like this, and I practice them, it makes running more enjoyable for me. And it makes it easier for me and I and I look forward to getting out and doing those runs, when I know I’m going to be in a kind of a peaceful state. And it all starts with the breathing, with breath.

Jen Wright
Being with the breath is the most effective way of being present. And most runners that I know, love running, so we can get out of our head, you know, and really being or get into our thoughts being present with our thoughts kind of one or the other, but just getting kicked into that flow state, a place where we’re just sliding and just present and just one with nature, one with the road with a trail, it’s breathing provides us the ability to pay attention to what’s going on on the internal inside.

And at the same time as the ability to be present with the road, with the external. And it’s, we really don’t see a difference or experience a difference, we’re just kind of one with the road. And that, that fluidity is something that’s often described. And the key component of breath is just ever present.

So teaching people how to harness that on command, if you will, as kind of the default not, rather than that one run, we’re so amazing, you know…

Patrick McGilvray
Well you know, it takes practice, you know, like anything else, like you just have to practice it. And, you know, I will tell you that when I first went out and started like trying this, it was very difficult, you know, and my mind was wandering and my, my I was thinking this is so hard, I don’t get it, it’s not working, you know what all those thoughts that come into your mind.

But after a while, if you can get into this kind of flow state, it’s really something that you are always kind of working on, like you’ll never get there. 100% You know what I mean? But when you can practice it more, just like meditation, where you practice meditation, you never perfect it, you know. So if you can practice getting in this flow state, but with running, start with your breath, slow down, use that deep diaphragmatic breath, try it on the threes instead of the twos and start becoming aware of your body.

I think, as runners we were not good at really getting into our body and being aware of our body. We use running as a way, a lot of people, use rowing as a way of getting out of their body. Like say they can sort of just like give their body something to do while their brain just starts thinking about something else, you know, but when you start to become keenly aware, like radically aware, of what’s happening in your body while you’re running, it can be a kind of amazing thing to pay attention to.

I do this when I’m running out in on trails more than anything, because I’m just so like in my element and out there in nature and I just feel like it’s like there’s this primal thing going on. I’m and and I just, I am just so aware of like my feet and my legs and my arms and my, my torso and just like all these things working in unison, and I’m just always fascinated out there. So I tend to get into that flow state more on the trails. I don’t have as many distractions as when I’m running around, you know, downtown Cincinnati with cars and traffic and stuff like that.

Jen Wright
Well, I mean, that’s, that kicks back to the beginning of our conversation, it just makes so much sense I was having a conversation with a gal about this very thing that running on the road, we are still in our survival mind, we need to pay attention to the car to the bike to the person to the pothole, all those things that could inadvertently interests.

And on the trail, likely, we’re not going to run into a lion. There, there’s less distraction at our survival, for our survival brain just to narrow down where we are. And there’s more opportunity to explore. When we’re in nature, there’s more opportunity to explore our own nature.

Really pay attention to these elements, oxygen, that sustain us, it’s in the trees, we’re work, there’s a relationship, the trees, and ourselves, there’s a relationship with our breath and our footstrike and just becomes relational. It’s not so, uhm, not so, alone.

Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, that’s cool. I love all this, Jen. We got to do this again, we got to talk more about some other things in regards to breathing and the nervous system. But for now, I think we’ve covered a lot. And I think we’ve given people a lot of amazing things to think about and to go and practice. So that’s awesome.

So where can people like learn more about you? I know you were talking about a workshop that you got coming up in August. So what is that? And where can people find out more about it?

Jen Wright
We will be posting the link, and you’ll find it in the comments, in the notes. August 11 is Breath Workshop: Fueled Up and Stitch Free. We’ll be spending two hours really learning the mechanics of breathing. And working with what we’ve got. If I could add one thing to pay attention to between now and August 11, is notice what takes your breath away, not just on the trail, but in life.

Notice what takes your breath away. Notice when your nostril breathing nasal breathing versus mouth breathing. I train so many people that when I ask them to take a breath, it’s breathing into the mouth, sucking in that oxygen. And that’s a topic in and of itself. So I would love to get into another podcast but certainly won’t be in the workshop, the importance of nasal breath, and how breathing is so important.

We have two ways of doing it primarily through our nostrils and secondary through our mouth. But nostril breath is controlled breath filters the air, it communicates more concretely and directly with the brain creates a human environment in our lungs. So the blood itself can absorb the oxygen molecules and efficiently carry it through the body.

Mouth breath is there when we need it, emergency breath taking the hill all these things that we’re used to, and yet it’s more fatiguing. So we’ll be talking about in the workshop, breath awareness, nasal breath, mouth breath, we’ll be working to create our most complete breath.

We’ll be working with resistance breathing to help build capacity. Because once we build, once we become skillful at Complete Breathing, the place to go is working with modulation to expand our capacity. Literally the way that those air sacs exchange the CO2. We can work with them. We’re not beholden to that first thought.

But we think that first feeling that we have that first breath that we take we thankfully breeze throughout the day. And so we can use breath to reset to reorient ourselves when we drift off. Use breath to build rhythm to recharge throughout the day.

And then we can use it to kind of prime ourselves to set up at the end of the day so that we can restore appropriately based on our demands like meeting really meeting the demands of the day. Every day is different. And these days, my goodness. We are at a greater capacity

Patrick McGilvray
Who knows what’s gonna happen? Every day is an adventure. Cool. What was the name of that workshop again?

Jen Wright
it’s called Fueled Up And Stitch Free, August 11, two hour session over zoom, I look forward to the day that we can meet at the park. We’ve been talking about that when we could do that. But first, we’re going to meet over zoom, because we can meet in the comfort of wherever we choose to, and work on this thing we call breadth.

Patrick McGilvray
Awesome. And where can people find out more about that?

Jen Wright
Well, I am always at real human performance.com Reach out to me directly via questions my emails, jen@realhumanperformance.com. A little bit about my business partner Chris Amis listed on our website. But we are all about physical fitness and mental well being. So just training, training up our human to become more ourselves.

Patrick McGilvray
We want to be the best humans we can be Jen, I love it. Love it. Thank you so much for this conversation. This has been really fun. And we’re gonna get deeper into some of these things and explore some other topics. I really love these conversations. Really cool. Thank you, Jen.

Unknown Speaker
Thank you, Patrick.

Patrick McGilvray
Oh my gosh, that’s so awesome. Jen is so amazing. Love her so much. So good. And just to give you guys a quick heads up, she’s got that breath training workshop for runners called fueled up and stitch free. That’s coming up on August the 11th.

She’s going to teach you all about how to oxygenate prior to a run, how to stay fueled with oxygen during a run and for recovery after your run. And she’s going to teach you practical skills that you can put into practice in your real life.

She’s going to teach you the practices that will build breath capacity, which is so important for running, especially for the long distance running you want to have you want to be able to increase your oxygen capacity. I’m gonna have a link to this event on the show notes page over at the running mind podcast.com forward slash 31 And you’ll have all the information there.

So definitely check it out. And then lastly, remember the next Running Lean weight loss masterclass for runners begins in just a couple of days. If you’re listening to this on Friday, when it comes out, there’s still a couple of spots available, learn more and apply at innerfiretribe.com/masterclass. That’s all I got for you today. Lots of love to each and every one of you, my friends, keep on Running Lean, and I’ll talk to you soon.

If you’ve tried to lose weight by running miles and miles or starving yourself and you’ve had zero results, you are not alone. This model of weight loss is broken. It’s never worked, and it has to be replaced. That’s why I created a powerful new training just for you called How to Become a Lean Running Machine. You’ll discover why running more and eating less does not work for weight loss and you’ll learn the three secrets to losing weight and keeping it off for good to get this free training right now just go to runningleanpodcast.com/lean and learn how you can become a lean running machine.