Running Lean with Patrick McGilvray
Last week I talked about how all of your problems are actually created in your head - by your thoughts. Today on the podcast, I explain how your feelings drive all of your actions and those actions …
Continue Reading about 6. How Your Thinking (More Than Anything Else) Determines Your Results →
My name is Patrick McGilvray, and I’m an experienced marathoner, ultra runner, running coach and mindset expert. I believe mindset is the most powerful and most underrated tool you have as a runner. So I’ve devoted my life to helping runners like you develop the mindset you need to fuel your inner fire and become the badass runner you were meant to be. This is The Running Mind podcast.
Hey there, and welcome back to The Running Mind podcast. My name is Patrick McGilvray. And I’m your host, and I’m a master life and success coach for runners and other cool people. And today, I’m going to follow up from last week’s episode. Last week’s episode was all about how your problems are all created in your mind.
It’s a very empowering way to look at the world, it’s the way the world is, it’s kind of like seeing the matrix once you understand how this stuff works. And I’ve received a lot of great feedback on last week’s episode, and people have been sharing their feelings with me about it and their thoughts about it. And it’s creating some really interesting conversations.
And today, I want to kind of follow up with that, with the second part of that episode. So when we talk about how our thinking, how circumstances are neutral, and our thinking is, we get to choose our thinking and our thinking causes our feelings and how we feel about things. And we can see things as a problem or not as a problem.
Today, I’m going to give you kind of the rest of the formula, the next two pieces of the formula for mastering your mindset. So you are going to enjoy this. I mean, seriously like this is if you want to get different results in your life, if you want things to be different in your life. It’s going to start with changing your thinking. And it’s going to start with learning the things that we’re going to be talking about here on this podcast, not just today.
But going forward. I want to help you get whatever it is you want in your life seriously. And you can do it. And I can help. But first I want to talk a little bit about my group coaching program, which is called The Runner’s Edge. And this is where it’s a private membership group where I take this teaching and this coaching to the next level. It’s a monthly membership program, it’s only $26.2 per month. Do you like what I did there with the price? It’d be easy to remember, but I wanted it to be just less than $1 a day.
I wanted it to be a simple, no brainer for you to say I want to be a part of that. Because what you get in the program is you get more of what I’m doing here, you know, we take it to the next level, we take it go a little bit deeper. And then you can also ask questions and get questions answered.
And I can do some, you know, kind of one on one coaching with you in that group as well. So we get the mindset training online coaching some one on one stuff, which is what a lot of online programs don’t do, they don’t offer. You know, from a group perspective, they don’t offer a one on one component. And I wanted to do that for you.
So you’ll get some one on one time with me. It’s a fun, supportive community composed of other runners just like you. You can ask questions, learn from others about how to build mental toughness, how to gain more confidence in your running and in life. And then everything I do in the program is going to be archived on a members only membership site.
And on that site, I also have courses that I create. And I’ve got a really cool course on there right now on goal setting and how to find a better way to do goal setting, okay. And all that is included. Like I said it’s $26.2 per month, $26.20. And you will get the edge that you need to perform your best whether it’s in running or just in life. So get The Runner’s Edge and start becoming the best all around version of yourself.
Okay, so today, we’re going to be talking about how you’re thinking more than anything else determines your results. Now we want to do a quick little recap from last week, in case you’re brand new to the podcast that this is your first time listening. Or if you just want a quick little recap, you know, like when you’re watching Netflix and they’re like, here’s what happened last week on you know, whatever it is and then they show you and you’re like oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well, that’s what I’m going to do here for you. Okay, so here’s what happened last week on The Running Mind podcast.
So you sit, you ration the circumstances in your life, the stuff that’s happening around you, is neutral, it’s always in neutral. It’s your thoughts about your situation that cause you to feel the feelings inside, okay? So you know, if you get a flat tire on your way to work, the flat tire doesn’t cause you to be pissed off. Okay, it’s your thoughts about getting the flat tire that caused the emotions, okay.
And then your thoughts about a particular situation will be different depending on how you experience the world. So whatever your model of the world it is, which is based on your past experiences, your beliefs, your values, your religious views, and on and on, these are all filters that we use to kind of, it’s how we perceive the world around us. And they’re different for everyone.
So we each have our own model of the world. We each experience, quote, unquote, reality differently. Okay, the way you interpret the circumstances in your life, that is your reality, the way that I interpret the circumstances in my life, that is my reality. So we each have a kind of a different reality. We call this the model of the world, your model of the world.
But the empowering part about this is that you get to create your own reality, and everyone else does, too. So what you actually think is like, just the way it is, isn’t the same for me, it’s not the same for everybody else. Just the way it is, is the way it is for you. Okay.
And an example I gave was like, if you are running a marathon, and you get a cramp in your calf at mile 18 and it hurts, and you have to stop and walk. So that’s just a circumstance, that’s just what is happening. You can choose for it to mean nothing, no big deal. I’m going to finish a little bit slower than I thought. Or you can choose it to mean, I’m an utter failure. I can’t, you know, ever be successful at running a marathon. I can’t believe I had to walk. I’m a terrible person. I’m unworthy.
Yeah, the cramp in your leg is not causing those feelings. Okay? This is what you’re thinking about it. All right. So situations are always neutral. There’s just circumstances in your life, your thoughts, you get to choose your thoughts. That’s your thinking, which causes you to feel emotions, and emotions are those one word things like anger, sadness, fear, frustration, disappointment, even like joy, happiness, confidence, love. These are all emotions that we feel based on how we think.
Okay, then today, we’re going to fill in the last two pieces of this puzzle, which is actions and results, okay. So your thinking causes your feelings, your feelings, determine your actions, okay? And then your actions, the actions that you take, determine the results that you get. Okay?
So let’s talk a little bit about actions. Actions, our actions are the stuff you do. Actions are the behaviors that you engage in the steps that you take. Actions can also be stuff you don’t do. Now, inaction is a form of behavior, right? Or an action. So every action you take is driven by your feelings.
And you might be thinking, Well, no, I just, you know, I do things because I know I have to or whatever, but think about this for a second. Have you ever gone out? And just like you went for like a 10 mile run? And you’re like, I don’t know, when I did that, I just felt like it. Right? Or if you’re, if you’re Forrest Gump, and it’s like, why have you been running for so long? I don’t know. I just felt like running.
Or maybe you were supposed to go out for a training run and it was like cold and rainy and you’re like, I don’t really feel like it today. So your feelings about the situation are determining what you’re going to do or not do? Okay? Another example is like, people with depression, they often don’t feel like doing anything, you know, and hear me out on this like depression is a diagnosed mental disorder. And I’m not saying it’s something you can just turn on and off with your thinking.
But, you know, depression is caused by things like you know, it’s biological, psychological and social sources of distress cause depression, the definition. You know, the Google definition of depression is a mental health disorder characterized by persistently depressed mood or loss of interest in activities, causing significant impairment in daily life. In other words, if you have depression, you don’t feel like doing anything. You have a lot of loss of interest in activities.
And I’m not saying this is all there is to it, but it’s part of it. It’s part of the equation of depression. But think about this for a minute. If you’re feeling lonely, if you’re feeling sad, or depressed or unworthy, how are you going to show up in the world? What actions are you more likely to take? Or what are you not going to do?
You know, how are you going to show up for work? For your partner, for your kids? What behaviors good or bad do you think you’ll partake in? If you’re feeling lonely, sad, depressed and unworthy? My guess is that you’re probably going to take some negative actions, you’re gonna engage in some negative behaviors, you probably make some poor choices, you might even, you know, start doing some escape-ism stuff, you know, checking out and numbing.
But what if you felt differently inside? Like, what if you felt feelings of confidence? What if you felt feelings of contentment, of peace? What if you were grateful and happy? How would these feelings determine your actions? What do you think you would do if you felt that way?
You know, what actions would you be more likely to take? And then think about how you would show up for work if you were feeling that way? How would you show up for your partner or for your kids? How would you show up for your training runs? What do you think you would do or not do?
So it’s so important to understand that, you know, everything that we do, we do because we are feeling a certain way. And a lot of times, you know, there’s things we do, because we don’t want to feel that way anymore. So this is like in painful situations. We can engage in some, you know, I call it like escapist or escapism, numbing behaviors, you know, overeating, drinking too much. lethargy, you know, spending money.
A lot of people, you know, shop, they have that shopping addiction. And I’m not making fun of that, but I saw this meme recently that I thought was pretty funny. And at the top of it, it just said, you know, therapist says, “Now, what do we say when we’re feeling sad?” And then the patient says, “Add to Cart”. The therapist was like, “No”.
But it’s true, it makes us feel good, we get that little hit of dopamine when we purchase something, or when we, you know, have that drink, or take that particular drug or eat the french fries, and the burger and the milkshake. You know, it makes us feel good temporarily. It does help us to not feel the feelings of pain or sadness, or loneliness, or unworthiness or whatever.
And it does work, it works for a minute, it kind of makes the pain go away temporarily, but then when that little buzz wears off, the pain is back. And then it becomes worse, because now we beat ourselves up about engaging in this bad behavior. And then the cycle just continues. So our feelings can really determine that our feelings really determine our actions.
And we have to be careful about the kinds of actions we take when we’re feeling certain ways, okay. And then these behaviors that we engage in can become habits after a while, and they can actually form new neural pathways in our brains. And so they can become easier to do over you know, over time, they become easier and easier to do these things, they become habits, and they become part of our subconscious.
And this can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the behavior. Okay. So just to kind of summarize what I’m talking about with actions, your actions are the things we do or don’t do, they are the behaviors we engage in, or don’t engage in, they are good or bad behaviors. And then it’s our actions that actually determine all of our results. Okay.
So results are the things that you get in your life, or the things that you want in your life. These are usually tangible and measurable. So results can be things like, hey, I ran a half marathon and under two hours, that’s a tangible measurable result. I lost 10 pounds. I got a promotion at work. I made $100,000 last year, these are all tangible, measurable results.
Something like there’s a little bit of a gray area, but it’s like I have a great relationship with my partner. So that could be an opinion. But you could quantify that by saying, like, oh, we communicate clearly and openly and regularly, we work through all of our issues. You know, we spend quality time together, we speak each other’s love languages, that could be a measurable way of saying that that is a result that you have, okay, but every result that you get in your life is determined by action you’ve taken or your inaction, okay?
So what you do, or don’t do, determines what you get, or don’t get. And if you want different results in your life, if you want something to change, you have to take different actions, right, the definition of insanity, that’s doing the same things over and over and over expecting different results.
And the crazy thing is like, we all do this, we’ve all done this at some point in our life, right? You know, I just, I’m going to keep training the same way, every season for my marathon, and I’m not getting any faster. And it’s still way, super hard. But I’m not changing my diet, I’m not changing my training plan, I’m not doing anything different. And I keep getting the same results. Why is this happening to me?
It’s like, Hey, you gotta switch some stuff up, right? But what we do, determines what we get. And what we do is driven by how we feel. So if you want to change your actions, you’re going to have to change how you feel. First, you have to change the emotions that you’re feeling. And since your thoughts determine your feelings, you’re gonna have to change your thinking first. So basically, what I’m saying here is if you want different results in your life, you have to change your thinking, Okay?
How you’re thinking more than anything else is going to determine your results, how you think about your situation, or how you think about, you know, whether you can do this thing or not, you know, if you think I remember when I sign up for my Ironman, that was a big deal for me back then. I was scared to death.
I hit the, you know, submit button when I paid for it, which was like $700, by the way. So there was fear. And there was like, a sense of like, am I doing the right thing here? But anyway, I was full of fear, like, can I do this? Can I accomplish this really hard thing? I mean, it’s a crazy event, you know?
And so I had to change my thinking, at some point, I had to sort of become an Ironman, like I had to, you know, get into the thinking of like, Yes, I can do this, in order for me to get those results. Because if I thought the whole time, like, there’s no way I can do this, there’s no way I can do this. There’s no way I can do this.
Guess what? When I show up at the starting line, my habitual thought patterns and feelings around this are all going to be I can’t do this. That’s a terrible way to approach something like that. So instead, I had this thought of like, I’m going to do this, I am going to do this, I can do this. You know, I was still nervous and fearful and things like that. But I pushed through that. I thought and felt in my heart that I could do it. And I did. Okay, so here’s a great question. Ask yourself, what do you want? Seriously, what do you want? See, very powerful question. And unfortunately, we don’t really take it very seriously. But think about it, like maybe you want to run a full marathon someday.
Or maybe you want to start your own business. But you’re thinking like, I could never do a full marathon like, I’m just I’m not capable of that. Or I would love to start my own business, but it just seems so complicated. I just don’t know enough. You know, or maybe what you want is a better relationship with your husband, or you want that promotion at work or you want to start your own business or you want to hike the Appalachian Trail you want to vacation in Italy.
Or you want to spend a month on a tiny island in the middle of the South Pacific. Seriously, that’s what I want. I want to spend a month on some remote little island in the middle of the South Pacific Ocean. That’s what I want. But think about it, like what do you want in your life? Start asking yourself that question seriously, and figure out the answer, figure out what it is that you want. Because it’s a very, very important question.
So I’m going to give you guys a little writing exercise this week. And this is going to help you to see how this all works. I’m gonna give you an example here in a minute, but it’ll help you to see how this works. But it will also help you to start in creating some new realities for yourself and start getting some results that you want. And when you start doing this work on a regular basis, you will start to create better habits, and you’ll start to create those new neural pathways like I was talking about.
So here’s the exercise I want you to do, I want you to think about something that you really, really want, okay? And just write it down. And then write down all the thoughts you have about that thing, just brain dump everything out on the page doesn’t matter, good, bad. Otherwise, just break down everything you’re thinking about. It’s really interesting, when you start doing this, to see what it is, your thoughts are around something like that, you’re going to surprise yourself with what you’re actually thinking.
And then write down how those thoughts make you feel. You know, some might make you feel good, some might make you feel terrible, but just write down the feelings you’re feeling. You know, the emotion words, those one word emotion words. And then think about the actions that you’re taking or not taking because of those feelings. And then are those actions going to get you the result that you want? Are those actions going to get you what you want or not? Okay?
So that is like step one is to write down all that stuff. And then what you want to do is on a separate piece of paper, you know, write down that thing that you want again, but then, you know, write down what you want to think instead, the thoughts that would make you feel differently. You know, a lot of times, it’s going to be kind of the opposite of some of those thoughts that you had that maybe the negative thoughts.
So write down the thoughts you want to think instead. And then write down the emotions that those thoughts cause you to feel. And then write down the actions that one might take, because of those feelings, and then see if that is going to move you closer to that thing that you want. And I think you’re going to find some very interesting results from this. So here’s an example. I want to spend a month on a tiny little tropical island in the middle of the South Pacific. Okay, that’s what I want.
My initial thoughts when I just think about it is, oh, my gosh, that’s gonna be really expensive. I don’t think I can afford it. I don’t know if I can be away from home for that long. I would really want somebody to go with me, but I’m not sure who so I don’t know, do I just go alone? That sounds lame.
And I just don’t know if you guys need to know this or not. I’m going through a divorce right now. It’ll be finalized soon. I’m doing good. I’m doing pretty good through all that. But when I talk about things, like, you know, maybe I should go alone or find somebody to go with me. I’m not cheating on anybody. Just so you know. Okay.
So those thoughts are like, it’s expensive. I don’t know if I could be away from that long. Who should I go? You know, who would want to go with me? Do I just pick a friend? I don’t know. Maybe I go alone? What are those thoughts cause me to feel well, they caused me to feel fear, like financial fear, like, oh my gosh, I don’t know if I can spend that much money. You know, there’s that fear of the unknown of uncertainty.
Then I’m feeling things like loneliness and sadness about it. Because if I go by myself, is that lame? Does that make me feel sad? Maybe? And then what actions would I take? Because of those feelings? Probably nothing, I probably wouldn’t do anything.
And what are you thinking about this right now, as I’m saying this to you? Are you thinking like, do you just go? It’s going to be so much fun. What a fun adventure. I know, that’s what you’re thinking. And I’m kind of thinking that too. And I’m looking at this and going like, I don’t want to feel those feelings. You know, if this is something that’s important to me that I want to do, I need to take some different actions, I need to feel differently, I need to think about it differently.
So the results I would get would be nothing. I wouldn’t go on this trip. I just wouldn’t do it. Now. Piece of paper number two. Let’s say I write the same thing on there. I want to spend a month on a tropical island in the middle of the South Pacific. What thoughts would I want to think instead? Well, first of all, I can probably save money for this. It wouldn’t take that long. You know I can work, get out so that everything is covered from a work perspective, you know, get all that stuff covered. Because I don’t think I’m gonna have access to the internet in this place. I think I just want to be unplugged.
You know, workout, social connections and meetings. And although I can get my schedule figured out, my schedule is flexible on purpose. So I can do things like this. And I bet I could find someone to go with me. I mean, who wouldn’t want to go to a tropical island for a month with me? It would be amazing. Are you kidding me? So oh, my God, he’s so amazing. I could even go alone and just make it an opportunity for me to like, really discover myself. I mean, that sounds right there.
When I say it like that. It’s like, Whoa, that sounds so cool and empowering. And how does that make me feel? Oh, my God, now I’m feeling excited and adventurous. And it sounds like fun. I’m feeling joyful, and even grateful. Grateful for my schedule, grateful for these kinds of opportunities. And I’m even feeling a little bit of fear. But it’s okay. It’s like, it’s fear. But I know, it’s like, the fear of like, of the unknown. And that’s okay, like, I can handle that.
All right, then what actions would I take based on those feelings? Well, oh, my gosh, I’m gonna start planning this thing, I’m gonna start a savings fund, I’m gonna grab a map and start figuring out what island I want to go to and figure out how to get there, gotta take all these little planes or whatever, and I’m going to talk to some friends and find somebody to come with me.
And then, you know, the two of us will start talking about it and planning together and all that into anticipation. And all the planning just sounds so fun. Like, that’s the kind of action that I want to take. And then the result would be that I go on this life changing adventure to this little island, you know, and it all starts with thinking about it differently. You know, so that result that I want in my life, that thing that I want, I can get that and I can see how I can get that by changing my thoughts by changing my feelings and changing my actions.
I feel I want to go on this trip now. I’m gonna have to do that. And like keep you guys posted as to what is happening with that, because this would be amazing. So here’s a quick recap. circumstances in our life, the situations where it’s always neutral. Okay, we get to choose our thoughts about how we feel about each situation, okay, choose our thoughts.
And then our thinking determines our feelings and our emotions, our emotion. Our emotions drive our feelings. I’m sorry, our emotions, drive our actions or inaction. And then those actions determine the results that we get. And if you want different results, you got to change your thinking, okay.
So there’s like five little components to this, these little five things, you learn these five things, and you’re gonna learn how to master your mindset, for running and for life. Okay, I hope you’re seeing how this all fits together. This is the secret to the universe.
Seriously, if you understand this, and you start to really grasp these concepts, and understand how this works, you are going to live a more empowered life, you’re going to start getting what you want in your life. And you’re going to start feeling amazing. And you’re going to start doing amazing things and start getting amazing results. Cool.
I would love to hear your thoughts about this, you can always reach out to me directly at hello@innerfiretribe.com. Questions, comments, anything. And then you know, I post these things on the socials. So follow me on Facebook @pmcgilvray and on Instagram @pmcgilvray.
You can always drop comments on my posts there too, or send me a message or whatever. I’d love to hear from you. I love connecting with you guys individually. I love hearing how you’re thinking about this stuff and how it’s changing the way you’re thinking and seeing the world. And I would love to hear about the results that you’re getting. Cool. I hope you all have an amazing day. Much love to each and every one of you and I’ll see you next time
Did you know that most runners fail to reach their goals? It’s not because of lack of training, lack of desire, whether it’s running faster or running farther, I believe most runners just haven’t developed the mental toughness they need to get them across the finish line. That’s why I created a step by step training called How to Build Mental Toughness and Become A Badass Runner. I want to show you how to train your mind so you can tough it out when the going gets tough. And the best part, this comprehensive training is yours absolutely free. To get it right now just go to innerfiretribe.com/badass and get started today.
Chris Wissman is a personal trainer, a movement and lifestyle coach, and an all-around badass when it comes to functional fitness. He's co-owner of Real Human Performance in Madisonville. Today we …
Patrick McGilvray
My name is Patrick McGilvray, and I’m an experienced marathoner, ultra runner, running coach and mindset expert. I believe mindset is the most powerful and most underrated tool you have as a runner. So I’ve devoted my life to helping runners like you develop the mindset you need to fuel your inner fire and become the badass runner you were meant to be. This is The Running Mind podcast.
Hey there, and welcome back to the podcast. My name is Patrick McGilvray. And I’m your host. And today I’ve got a really cool treat for you. I’m talking with my good friend, Chris Wissman. Chris is a personal trainer, he’s more of a movement and lifestyle coach. That’s what he calls himself.
And Chris and I can have conversations that just go, who knows where, and they’re awesome. We talk about mindset, we talk about physiology, about physiological load. In this particular show, we get into running form and posture and how important that is, and what happens to your body when you don’t have good form.
We talk about things like being hunched over all day sitting down and what that’s doing to us, maybe the importance of having something like a standing desk. And we talk a lot about diet, too, and how there isn’t one diet necessarily for everyone, there’s not one diet that’s perfect for everyone. And then it’s important for you to figure out what your metabolic diet type is.
Chris has a wealth of knowledge on all this stuff. And like I said, we could go in many, many different directions here. And we could talk forever about some of this stuff. We don’t talk forever, but we do talk about a lot of different things. This is really cool. I love love, love talking to Chris. And then at the very end, he gives us a couple of simple, very simple tips for endurance runners to help us to be more efficient in what we do.
So you have to wait until the end of the podcast for that one. But before we get into that, I wanted to quickly go over something I’m very excited about. And I just recently launched Inner Fire Tribe’s group coaching program for runners. So this is a comprehensive online training program.
And it’s designed for you if you’re a long distance runner, if you’re a half marathon or marathon or ultra runner; it’s designed to help you bring your mind and your body into alignment so you can get the results that you want. It’s designed to show you and teach you how to train your mind like you train your body. So you can get those powerful results. So you can reach your goals, whatever those may be, they may be running faster than you ever have before or completing a distance you have never done before.
So when you become a member of the Inner Fire Tribe, you’re gonna get detailed training plans. So we’ll have comprehensive half and full marathon training plans. And then a training library that’s going to continue to grow. So new training plans will be added all the time, you know, we’re going to be adding 5k and 10k. And you run your first ultra plan that’s going to be coming very soon. You’ll get mindset training.
So I will do weekly, live mindset training, so you can learn how to train your mind to work for you. You know, the key, the key to success in all of life, but especially in running is to get your mind and your body into alignment. If your mind is fighting against you every step of the way, running is going to be very challenging for you. So as a master mindset coach, my focus is helping you build the mental toughness that you need to make running easier, you know, get faster and actually have more fun doing it.
You will get live online coaching. So I do a live coaching in a private Facebook group. And let’s face it, running is hard, right? There’s a lot that goes into becoming a successful long distance runner. And not everybody’s needs are the same. So what I want to do is some one-on-one coaching with you in an environment where other people can benefit from it. You’ll also get that supportive community of the Facebook group. It’ll be comprised of runners just like you. So it’ll be fun, I’ll be supportive. It’s a great place to ask questions, get help about all things running nutrition, gear building, mental toughness, and so much more.
And then everything we do, becomes archived into a comprehensive video library. And then we’ll be adding to that video library all the time. So we’ll be covering main topics like running forearm strength training, stretching, recovery, nutrition, fueling for race day, proper nutrition, hydration, pay strategy, tapering, all the things that go into running rain, seems easy enough, right? Just put on your shoes and head out the door.
But when we get into the sport of running, and especially the sport of distance running, there’s a lot of factors involved. And you can almost not have too much training when it comes to that. So this video training library will be ever growing. Now, here’s the best part about joining Inner Fire Tribe, this is not something that is going to break your wallet. Okay, you’re gonna get the training plans, the mindset training, the instructional video library, live online coaching, and a supportive community, you’re gonna get all of that. It’s less than $1 a day, you can find $1, you know, right now in the couch cushions, probably.
So when you join the Inner Fire Tribe group coaching program for runners today, it’s only $26.2 per month. And here’s what’s cool about it: it’s a subscription based system. And the longer you stay, the more valuable it becomes for you. Because we’re always gonna be adding new strength routines, new exercises, new training videos, new coaching sessions, and more and more and more, get in on this today, because it’s only going to get better.
And I can’t guarantee that I’m going to keep things at this low price point. So it’ll probably end up going up soon. So go there today, there, you got nothing to lose, really go to innerfiretribe.com/coaching. And you can sign up today, come and be a part of the tribe. I would love to have you there. All right, cool. So let’s get into my interview with Chris Wissman.
Today, I am joined with Chris Wissman. Chris is a movement and lifestyle coach, and just kind of all around badass. If I can say that, of course. Chris, why don’t you tell me and tell everybody else a little bit about what you do.
Chris Wissman
So at Real, Jen and I owners of a company called Real Human Performance. So we really focus on specifically the gym floor, just corrective movements and making sure everybody’s moving for their kind of individual approach. We also do stress management courses and workshops, outside of real and different corporations to the city. My passion is becoming more and more oriented towards kind of helping people through their, like changing their lifestyle factors.
That way we can like what you’re focusing on, help people ease the load, so their mindset can be even stronger and better than it’s ever been. So we approach it from kind of a pillar standpoint. And we can get into those pillars as we, as we were we record here, but um, movement, and then just like lifestyle factors and I help people with that.
Patrick McGilvray
Cool, so you’re different from the traditional gym or from, you know, traditional, yeah, something like CrossFit, you know, so explain a little bit about the differences and how that would relate to somebody who’s let’s say, an endurance runner.
Chris Wissman
So running is the perfect thing to compare that or to relate that to, because CrossFit tends to stay in what we call the sagittal plane, which is just up and down movements, a lot of barbell movements, a lot of burpees, they’re not really incorporating the way that our core is originally designed to move our core is meant to propel us through locomotion is we’re meant to locomote and to run.
And that’s why I love this approach, because with running, you oftentimes see posture starts to either deteriorate depending on how you’re built, or just be stronger than it’s ever been because of that rotational ability that we train on the gym floor. So a lot of the things that we do on the floor, are oriented back towards restoring our core function and our back functions so we can locomote better. Locomote just meaning walk and run, just go through that plane of motion.
So do a lot of rotational drills, a lot of anti rotational drills, a lot of ground based movements, stuff that’s really designed to restore that style of movement and just recognize that not everyone needs to do the same thing. And everybody’s starting in a very unique spot. And we have to be very intelligent about how we deploy these movements to people to make sure benefits them because what use of it is that if we’re not if we’re not benefiting that person.
Patrick McGilvray
I want to go back to something you just said about posture. And for me when I think of that when it comes to running I think of running form. For sure a lot of people have what you would consider like terrible running form, terrible posture so they may stand like they may be really hunched over over, you know, their shoulders are up in their ears. They may be rounded at the back, or, you know, they may be flailing a lot, you know, and I see this in long distance runners, especially, you know, because we spend a lot of time out there running together, and you see some people you’re like, how’s that guy able to run a marathon like that?
Yeah, and some people are pretty, you know, they seem like they’re pretty fast runners. But my guess is that they could be a lot more efficient for sure and probably stay injury free. Like talk a little bit about the importance of posture.
Chris Wissman
Yeah, exactly. So that posture, you talk about that anterior rolled, forward posture has a lot to do with being seated. Unfortunately, we’re both seated right now. I usually try to sit on like a Swiss ball or something that keeps me active, that way, it stimulates my posture throughout the duration, which is just a big exercise ball for, for lack of a better term.
But um, basically, when you see that for rolled posture, and that kind of head for neck, it’s something that I still suffer from. And that’s kind of why I went out on a limb and tried to learn so much about it. It’s a lot of times that dysfunctional breathing pattern, when we start really heavily mouth breathing and getting exhausted, the musculature on the front side of our body, and our chest will start to constrict and just pull ourselves forward.
Which makes us have to try to keep our head up, our head is trying to do our head and eyes are trying to do anything they can do to stay in the horizontal plane of motion to make sure that we’re not going to fall over, right.
So as our chest falls forward, our head will start to come up. And that’s where you see what’s called back kyphosis, which is just lack of thoracic extension, lack of keeping what I’ll cue in the gym is just like, hey, keep up, keep up proud chest when we’re down there. That way, we can restore some of that extension to the mid back.
And when we’re able to train ourselves to maybe not so much panic, breathe throughout the day, use our nostrils, you’ll and just be very cognizant of our posture, you’ll slowly start to notice that improving. Again, it’s something that you can’t just fix overnight. Keep in mind how long it took us to develop these postures and, and so you have to really reinforce it every day, with everything that you do.
And that has effects way deeper than we know and has effects on our nervous system. It has effects on our digestion, it has effects on how our feet strike the floor. It’s very, it’s a, it’s a feedback loop from up, up and down and down and up. And it’s constantly talking to itself to help us try to find balance.
Patrick McGilvray
So yeah, that sort of proud chest that you know, sitting up straight, basically, right. It’s kind of a, it’s kind of a trendy thing right now, because there’s all these gadgets that you can wear, you know, that’ll bind you to, yeah, right. I’m like, okay, why is this all of a sudden a thing? You know, are we really that bad hunching over? And I guess we are.
Chris Wissman
Yeah, we are and, and that kind of pulls us back to it makes us a really quad dominant runner as well. And as we become quad dominant, then our glutes, and the hamstrings kind of start to relax or not do what they’re supposed to do, which is the pulling part of the movement. So the more anterior we are, the more front of the body we are with our posture, the more that’s going to go down the chain to our feet, and our knees, our quads and our shins. So you could see shin splints because of this knee problems, and all of that. So it’s kind of just a cascade of effects, if you will.
Patrick McGilvray
So really just stand up straight when you’re running with a proud chest. That’ll really help a lot, right?
Chris Wissman
Oh, for sure. For sure. There’s some really good people in the city if you want to get down deep in the nitty gritty with this. But I mean, generally speaking, we want to try to strike the ground with ease, we don’t want to be slamming down. We don’t want to be landing too much right on the heel immediately, we want to land kind of whole foot or maybe even front foot. And again, everybody’s really unique in that regard. It’s just about doing it, like you said, efficiently if it sounds and looks not efficient, and probably isn’t.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, I don’t know how people get through like 26 miles running the way they do sometimes. Well, I’m not saying I’m perfect at all, but…
Chris Wissman
I’ve seen like good posture, you hold really, really good posture while you’re moving. You’re a lot better than I am. So that’s great.
Patrick McGilvray
Well, yeah, and just full disclosure, I do work out with Chris. So that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to get him on here to talk about this is because we talk about this at the gym extensively. And I’m like, dude, we just need to get a conversation or record it and share it. It’d be awesome. So here we are.
Chris Wissman
Heck yeah.
Patrick McGilvray
So you mentioned like sitting on a Swiss ball is something you do to stay active while you have to sit because I mean, let’s face it, we do have to sit sometimes, yes. Or there are alternatives like a standing desk. Have you seen people having actual results from that? And what are the results from that, because everybody’s talking about, you know, they’re telling me like Patrick, you should really have a standing desk. Because I sit a lot.
Chris Wissman
I’m very big on the approach of individuality and almost like in everything that we talk about. And if we have bad posture, and if we’re not using our, our glutes or hamstrings, our knees, and if we have a dysfunctional breathing, pattern standing, and sitting really don’t make a difference.
In my opinion, if we’re able to stand upright, correctly, and be very long in the spine and access our proper breathing mechanisms, then yeah, it’s awesome. And it’ll keep us active throughout the day. If you’re someone that’s not getting enough movement throughout the day, it gives you a chance to just slide side to side, and it gives you a chance to stretch and open up. But I guess, standing desk with awareness, awesome, without it could lead to some long term things. But they’re great for some people.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah. And you’re touching on something, though, that I think is important for us to all remember, which is that it’s different for everyone. Yeah, you know, everybody has their own needs. Everybody has their own things that work for them. And, you know, I’m in a lot of groups, and I see people post questions in groups, like, what’s the best way to do x? Or what’s the best shoe for x? Or what’s the best watch to where it’s like, dude, who knows?
Whatever works for you, you know? Yes, it is the best. Anyway, and I like your approach with that, like, when we do work out at the gym, you’re very much about the individual person and what their needs are. It’s not just about like, everybody do the same thing, no matter what. Yeah, you know, you take into account what people need, you know, I need certain things, and somebody else might need something completely different. So that’s cool. For sure.
So we’re talking about building strength, right? Yes, you’re talking about becoming stronger. You know, what are, what are some of the benefits of strength training for runners, because here’s, here’s something I’ve heard before. You know, runners, you know, you don’t want to bulk up. Because, you know, you got to stay lean. So, you know, the standard thing is, like, just don’t lift heavy weights.
Chris Wissman
Yeah, I think there’s benefits at certain times for that heavy lifting category for certain people. The main benefit that I see with the model that we use is restoring the transverse abdominis and your inner unit, so your, your core and your back and the way that functions, I don’t see a lot of people teaching humans how to rotate.
And there’s a ton of different ways you can approach this and it’s really not all that come left, you just have to know how to not go too far. So basically, you would teach someone how to resist rotation, via just like a planking platform or a box plank platform. And then you would slowly start to maybe lift a hand or a foot and make sure their hips don’t die from side to side, we can get activity in that deep pelvic floor, then they’re ready.
And I’m kind of fast forwarding a bunch, but then they’re ready to use resistance on the rotation. And if we can really learn how to powerfully rotate, then we’re going to go through that gait cycle fast, and you’re going to be very strong in it. So that’s really my focus on strength training around running.
I mean, there’s all the normal things such as, you know, just having more strength, your muscles, more endurance, the remote tools, you’re going to build, like stronger ligaments and everything around that joint. That way, that joint works better. And we’re at less risk for injury as long as we’re safe on the gym floor. But my real focus is restoring that rotation because we don’t do enough of it anymore.
Patrick McGilvray
And what a lot of people don’t realize is that running is a very rotational activity. Yeah, yes. You’re rotating. Yeah. You do use your core a lot if you’re doing it right.
Chris Wissman
Yeah, if you look at like these guys that are on the track for like, the Olympic athletes, you’ll see them literally, chin to hip. They’re ripping their hands as they go through and they’re doing our T spine is meant to have a ton of rotations. That’s why we’ll start our day off with mobility drills such as like the 90/90 sweep to open up the ribcage and intercostals and get everything available to move again, because it’s so stiff from just being forward all day. Seated and watching TV or in the car on the cell phone. Everything is just very stiff and rigid. So it’s just like let’s build some rotation back in this game and then people tend to do better?
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, I know that when I first started distance running, I was not focused on the core at all. And then I started doing some core work and started to realize how important it is. Especially the outside. Your oblique slings, man.
Chris Wissman
Those are obliques. Yeah, you’re good at that you have the anterior and posterior oblique slings that connect. And this is why we go through a gait cycle that connects your shoulder and your hip. So it’s a big cross pattern from the front and the back of your body. And that’s what propels us through the so when we can if you look at a six pack on someone, this is like the most desirable thing to see as a six pack and someone that might not be the most functional. That’s our rectus abdominis. That’s like the top layer. And that doesn’t really have anything to do with the way we were built to rotate. It’s just kind of our protection mechanism for our organs. So it’s really good in that regard. But as far as locomotion, a six pack, isn’t that functional.
Patrick McGilvray
So interesting. Yeah. So it’s all vanity.
Chris Wissman
Yeah, many people picked up on it. And they just want to keep it and so I get it.
Patrick McGilvray
I get it. Good. Well, then I’m gonna stop. Yeah, I’m going to stop going for the six pack, then there it goes. I know. It’s just a vanity thing, you know, strong oblique slings.
Yeah. That’s cool. So let’s talk a little bit more about that. The gait pattern, you know, in that whole gait cycle, because it’s fascinating to me to just kind of learn a little bit more about, you know, propulsion, and how we are, what we’re actually doing when we’re running. You know, I’ve heard it said that running is like a controlled fall, you know, you’re sort of falling forward, you’re leaning forward at the, at the ankles slightly. And so that your body is just sort of controlling that fall, you know. So anyway, that’s just one way of looking at it first, talk through that a little bit.
Chris Wissman
So there’s a really awesome woman that I studied through, named Katie Bowman. And she’s got a couple of books, one of which is Movement That Matters. And there’s another one called Move Your DNA, she talks about that, you can see people that lose their core propulsion.
And while they’re walking, it’s like they are falling, and they’re just catching themselves every step, and that’s pretty abrasive to the joint. So if you can take that, that controlled fall and make it more fluid, and I’ve heard it explained to me like you’re Spinning the globe, if you can make it be very easy, that will help that control fall. And that will propel you forward.
Ultimately, you really want to see at the end of that fall, aka push off your foot, you want to see full extension. And we practice that a lot when we’re doing our, our drills from from deadlift to overheads or whatever they might be, is extending through the hips, and pushing and plantar flexing off the ground and really learning to get as long as you can, the more we learn to extend, the more using that your posterior chain, your backside, your body, your hamstrings, your glutes, and you’re really able to fire them.
And that will help that fall that you’re talking about. Just be powerful. So extension, in regards to power will help you a ton. And there’s a lot of drills that you can do around that as extension base drills. So for power extension up, up, up those drills man, they’re my favorites.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, I don’t love them. No, they’re good. It’s good. I know I complain about the workouts, Chris, but I know.
Chris Wissman
You really don’t, man. I noticed when you came in, when you were really interested in starting this and have you started it, you had a different energy about you entirely. You literally were, you’re glowing. It’s a you’re a different Patrick than the one that I met, not that you weren’t a great human before. It’s just like, do you see Patrick? He’s dude, he’s radiating like he’s fired up. I really really like what you’re doing and everything. So that’s why I was stoked that the mind approach is what you’re choosing because it’s so important.
Patrick McGilvray
Well, that’s a good segue. Let’s kind of talk about that. So you know, I’m, I’m under this I’m operating from this place of like, mindset is everything. Okay? Yeah. Like everything that you want in your life was, you know, first created as a thought, and that our thoughts create the things we feel the emotions that we have. And it’s those emotions that create our behavior or actions, okay, so when you say or inaction.
You know, so when you say like, why did you do that? Oh, I felt like it or I didn’t feel like it, you’re talking about an emotion. Why didn’t you feel like it? What’s the thought that was telling you that you didn’t want to work out today or you didn’t want to go for that run, it might be some belief that you have about yourself that, you know, you’re not a good runner or something like that.
Anyway, so our thinking creates our emotions, our emotions, determine what we do our behavior, and then our actions or behavior gets us our results, okay, you want better results in your life, change your thinking, you know, that’s where I’m kind of, yeah, that’s where I’m operating from here,
Chris Wissman
It’s literally that because with your thoughts, you’re changing your hormones, and that, and that is what propels our emotion. So hormones, control emotions, emotions, control what we do, and then reinforcing them by embodying that thought. And it’s, literally, it’s the most powerful thing that you can, you can change. And it’s, it’s incredible. It really blows me away.
Because it is, the higher it is, the top notch in the hierarchies scale on what we want to address. When it comes to lifestyle coaching, if you’re constantly in an automatic negative self thinking, then you’re going to just repeat your cycle over and over and over again. And it’s not like I’m perfect, I still struggle with it in multiple categories. And the best thing that you can do when you’re in those thoughts is just stop the thinking and interrupt it with something that you really think is positive, or you want to it’s an affirmation, essentially.
But with that information, I found it really important. And Elliot Horowitz kind of reinforced this to interrupt it with something you’ve experienced very positive in your life, something that, like I used to ride BMX and dirt bikes a ton, and I can just visualize myself flying into the woods. So that is just like, my utmost flow states.
So if I can reinforce my affirmation, with a feeling that I got was riding dirt bikes are as close as I can get, then you’re more likely to achieve that positive thought or what it is that you want to do. And you’re interrupting that negative thought, right now, and with some success.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, and people really think that this is more complicated than that, you know, and, like, and it really isn’t. So, you know, being happy or being confident, you know, those are just states, their states of mind, you know, and if you want to be happy, go back to a time when you were super happy, like go float back into your body.
In that time, close your eyes, float back into that time, see what you saw, hear what you heard, and feel those feelings of happiness. Once again, I guarantee you if you take 30 seconds to do that, you’ll have a big smile on your face, for sure, man now, but what happens is we choose different thoughts. We choose thoughts of stress and anxiety and fear and hurt and sadness and guilt and shame. Like we choose these things. I think about choosing them.
Chris Wissman
Yeah, I think the statistic on that is like, like 90% of the population today is 90% of the thoughts are negative.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, it would have something like 60,000 thoughts a day? Yeah. So think about that, like, okay, what’s 90% of that? I don’t know, 50,000 of your thoughts are negative. What are we doing to ourselves, you know? And then we wonder why everybody’s on Lexapro or whatever, you know.
Chris Wissman
Yeah, with those thoughts, you’re not only reinforcing a negative mindset, you’re feeding an overall disease. I like the disease that broken down like that because it is just that, it’s a disease. And with just, I remember at an old company, I worked at the stress that it gave me and went off to get into the details of it but I had a chronic ulcer and I had just really really bad stomach pains really bad digestion and the day that place stopped my stomach problems, I stopped right along with it.
So these can manifest as anything like headaches, stomach aches, actual joint pain. If you have a vulnerable spot in your body and your real for reinforcing a negative thought, that vulnerable spot like I will know if I’m experiencing something out of the norm or negative via my diet or my mindset if my knee starts throbbing, like just like, hey, here’s here’s a sign for you. Something’s a little off you know, pay attention because I’ve beat my knee up so many times it’s very vulnerable to inflammation and we’re creating inflammation with the reinforcing negative thoughts and debt and bad lifestyle factors.
Patrick McGilvray
It’s crazy. Yeah. So your thoughts create these, this release of hormones and chemicals, right? Like serotonin. I can’t remember the other ones.
Chris Wissman
It’s complex, but you’re right on. I can’t really remember them either. But adrenaline…
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, stuff like that. And they can have an effect on you. So you can think yourself into, you know, a panic attack, basically, you can think yourself into that fight or flight kind of, right, where you’re, like, so anxious, and so fearful that you, that people actually have a panic attacks have to go to hospital, just because of thinking, you know, isn’t that wild? Like wouldn’t it be in our best interest to think something more positive instead?
Chris Wissman
Yeah, you’re right on and with that, that psyche is like the hierarchy of, of everything that we do, like I said, and therefore, like also reinforcing that you’ll also be you’ll see people that have that, that panic attack kind of mindset also, or those same kind of people that maybe are casting blame, or holding, like forms of resentment towards other people. And that really reinforces that anxiety. Yeah, it is crazy man.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, and Bruce Lipton talks about this, in his book, The Biology of Belief. I don’t know if you’ve read that one yet. I actually haven’t. But you’ve told me about it. I will.
So you know, he basically just talks about this relationship between the mind and the body, and that we think ourselves into health, or we think ourselves into disease. And, you know, he goes on to talk about how most disease and especially chronic pain, any any pain that lasts more than like, 90 days, or something like that, is is all based on our thoughts, our beliefs, and that you can change that and change the physiological makeup, you know, the chemical cocktail that you got floating around in your body, and cure yourself?
Chris Wissman
Yes, yeah, without a doubt. And with that comes like, the other things in life. And this is where I, I’d love to kind of dive into the other things that make our mindset vulnerable are like just just things in our modern day world, whether it be sleep or eating out of your diet type, or moving too much or too little or not, or having too many stimulants, you know, and breath is a huge one, we talked about that a little bit.
The environment that you place yourself in the actual environment, with the people you surround your wit itself with, and the environment via like, the things we put on our skin, the things that we breathe, the things that we put in to our mouth, the things that, yeah, just the actual, like the physical environment that you put yourself, put yourself, then it’s, they all play a role in our low, or what you and I’ve talked about before, are physiological below to potentially compromise our mindset.
So if we can reduce the that load through any of the number of like pillars that we work on, then our mindset has a better chance of like, hey, let’s take you know, maybe we can have 80 or 80% of our thoughts be negative instead of 90, and then slowly work your way into just being a person that really believes what you say, and what you say is a positive thing to yourself. Yeah, I’m really interested in Bruce Lipton’s work, I’ve heard a lot about it.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, it’s pretty wild stuff. There it is. It’s just really fascinating. Like, I can go, I’ve read a bunch of books like this, and I can just get really deep into that rabbit hole of like the mind body connection. It’s fascinating.
Chris Wissman
You are, your mind is your body, man.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, it really is. I mean, it’s like, it’s like the central processing unit. You know, it’s the CPU of your body, you know, it’s controlling everything. So you mentioned something in passing just now. I want to go back to that a little bit. You said something about diet type? Yeah, that.
Chris Wissman
So everyone has genetic makeup. And we all have what’s called a metabolic diet type or something, also referred to as bio biochemical individuality. So our gut is predisposed to absorb some things better than others. And when we have more eating out of our diet type, and really now, we have so many availabilities to eat healthy foods.
It’s more about not eating like the processed garbage and trying to eat foods that you know where they came from, you know, they’re clean, they’re not doused with herbicides and pesticides, and then that will help us and help our gut not be inflamed.
And if you can even take it a step further and do some diet typing questionnaires and you get really in the nitty gritty with what kind of vitamins and minerals that you might be an excess of or are not an excess of you can really dial in your nutrition and be right on the money with backing up your genetics.
So like people from like extreme northern climates would have like. It’s a shame that keto has gotten such a bad rap, but also a good rap because there are some benefits to it. Maybe if you’re an Eskimo I had the mistake of like, of getting wrapped up in the rabbit hole being keto, and I, I really messed up my gut.
And I don’t want to deter people from trying that because there are some definite benefits of having fats in your diet, but they have to be the right fats. And you have to know who you are, individually, if you’re going to get benefits from that. And so, it’s really more about just taking a step back and talking to yourself after you have the food.
And just see how you feel like I’m the weird person in the grocery store going, Hey, Chris, do you want do you want that? And like, you get an answer right away? You do, you do? I swear if you just, if you stop for a second and ask, you get an answer right away.
Like there’s sometimes that this company Jackson’s Honest, has these really good corn chips that are just it’s literally sea salt, blue corn and coconut oil. And sometimes my body’s like, yes. And other times, like, nope. And it’s just you just talk to yourself and your innate wisdom knows what you need.
Patrick McGilvray
My body always says yes, when I’m standing in front of the ice cream display. Patrick, do you need this? And I’m like, yeah, do you know, it feels so good.
Chris Wissman
I got really caught up again, when I sort of learned all this stuff. I got really caught in a rabbit hole just thinking all that was bad. And like, to kind of back up the mindset. Like if that eases your mind. And that’s something that is a treat to you and you really enjoy it. If the juice is worth the squeeze mentally, and you don’t feel terrible, like maybe not make it a habit, but enjoy that, like, enjoy the Graeter’s, you know what I mean?
If you’re gonna do it, enjoy it, don’t beat yourself up about it. Because that will really throw you down a spiral. And I’ve seen a lot of people, including myself, not get the benefits from that. Yeah, it gets a little tricky. So I kind of live and this is kind of a popular thing. But I kind of do live by the 80/20.
And just been taking a step back and asking myself if that’s what I wanted, that’s what I needed. I’m actually more of a carbo type if I were to do my metabolic diet typing, so I do really well on on like good carbohydrates. So I will have like Ezekiel bread, which is a great source of like sprouted soaked seeds and grains.
And for a couple of years ago, you wouldn’t catch me eating that because I thought that was bad. And it causes inflammation. And it sounds like it’s got gluten in it. It’s got gluten and, and to gluten is defense, everyone that has been tested, like they get a couple of controlled studies and everyone that had gluten showed gut permeability, which is like inflammation. So there is some truth to it.
But that was American gluten. Keep that in mind. We could go down a really deep rabbit hole here. And there’s American gluten and basically American students got a bad rap. Oh, it actually doesn’t have a bad rap. It’s bad because it’s been sprayed with so many chemicals and actually mutated what it is. So if you find an organic source of gluten, you might not unless you’re celiac, you might not get that effect.
Patrick McGilvray
So yeah, I mean, corn apparently is a good ancient grain. That’s low in gluten. Yeah. Yeah, man. So Metabolic Typing, this is very interesting. I’m interested in doing this, you know, like, how would I go about doing this?
Chris Wissman
So there’s an actual book called Metabolic Diet Typing. And the company that I do my training for, the Czech Institute, has their own version of it that I like. And so if you’re ever interested in a questionnaire, I’m more than happy to pass it to you. I like some things from the Czech Institute. And I like a lot of things from the diet, the diet typing from the book is very in depth.
So if you want to go down the rabbit hole, I’d go that route. If you don’t, I would just just ask yourself some questions, you know, and just be really honest with yourself about what’s benefiting you and what’s not.
Patrick McGilvray
Okay. So I did a quick search here on Amazon, like the Metabolic Typing Diet. Yep. Yeah, that’s it. Yeah, that’s it. And Walt, and Trish Fahey. You got it.
Chris Wissman
It’s been around for a while. And, you know, there’s, again, a lot of questions when you start to identify your diet type, but it’s really intuitive, and it’ll help you. And keep in mind, our diet type will change seasonally because our ancestors had different foods available at different times throughout the year.
We have the luxury now to just eat food from anywhere at any time and just go to Whole Foods and grab whatever. So if you got down into the nitty nitty gritty of your diet type you may change your food according to like, when it’s wintertime or when it’s spring or summertime, you know, you might eat a little I’m hotter and heavier in the winter, and more dense foods and in the summer of cooler, lighter foods, and it just, we crave those things, and we crave the soups, you know, in the winter, and then the salads in the summer.
Patrick McGilvray
So, pumpkin spice chai latte, fall in.
Chris Wissman
That’s, that was I think that was programmed later.
Patrick McGilvray
I don’t know, it’s pretty been around forever. What I love hearing you say is that, like diet, it depends on you. And I love this idea of just like figuring out what works for you, because so many people in the fitness community have kind of a one size fits all, you know, everything’s a nail, and they’ve got the hammer, you know, approach for diet, you know, it’s got to be keto, or it’s got to be, you know, paleo, or it’s got to be, you know, plant based, or it’s got to be, you know, whatever, or no carbs, or whatever it is. And I’m like, you know, it’s not that simple. You know, we’re not one size fits all people, you know?
Chris Wissman
Well, and when you when you start to make your, your transition into caring about what you how you treat yourself physically, and mentally, you’re gonna get some things that you identify with, you want to be like, that helped me like, so starting to clean up my diet and getting rid of X, Y, and Z, eating more of a paleo heavy fat approach was something that helped me and I identified with it.
And that was a part of the growing process. So I can really relate to where people are there. But it would be really sweet to start seeing people take a step back and just understand how different we all are. It is extraordinary how different of human beings we are, our gut microbiomes are totally different.
The way we move is different, the way we sleep, the way we act throughout our day, and our requirements are all different there, there might be some people that are just naturally deficient in vitamin A and others that aren’t at all. So you know, like, finding that kind of stuff out takes a little bit of work, but it’s well worth it. And just acknowledging the differences, I think is really important in it. And it kind of sets the ego aside for a minute. And, and allows you to relate to people and understand where they’re coming from.
Patrick McGilvray
So yeah, no, I love that. And, you know, I went, I was on a standard American diet for a long time. And that led me down the path of a lot of diseases, you know, me is what changed my Yeah, and I changed my diet. And I went from like, you know, pescatarian to vegetarian to plant based. And now I’m not as hardcore about plant based, I’m still vegetarian, I don’t crave eating, you know, meat at all.
And I don’t have anything against people that do. And I’m not saying one way is right or the other, but it’s just for me, I don’t have that desire for that. Yeah. So like, yeah, and I do like to have like a little cheese on my pizza, sometimes, you know, or, of course, whatever, you know, whatever. And I don’t beat myself up about it. Like, I have to do it this way or that way. So when people ask me, I say that I’m like, 98%, plant-based, you know, and that 2% is like, some Graeter’s every now and then you know, and cheese pizza, and I enjoy that it’s fine. And that way when I go to a party, and they’re like, have a cookie, I’m like, sorry, you noticed that it has butter in it? I’m like, Sure, Alex.
Chris Wissman
Yeah, my family just, oh, man, it’s been really accepting of it. But I can see the frustration on their face when I choose. I’m like, so every year that goes by, I experiment with a little more and a little more and, and I’m like, okay, I’ll try this this year. They’re like, why you’re gonna you’re gonna eat. I’m like, It’s not that I don’t think your food is good. It’s delicious. Which is like, since I’ve cleaned up so much when I do introduce something out of the ordinary for me, I just get, like ramifications sometimes. It’s like having a hangover. It’s not worth it.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, well, that’s a whole nother topic. So, just to kind of recap, like, I love this approach of like, do what feels good for you. Yeah, ask yourself, Do I want this? You know, and I think that can apply, you know, to a lot of things, you know, we could do that in our training. We can do that. You know, am I is this hurting my body? Is this form hurting my body? Is this long run good for me right now?
And it’s probably good for us to you know, ask those questions of ourselves on a regular basis, you know, and just just kind of check in with our mind. You know, what do you what does my body need here? Because your mind is so powerful that it really does know your your subconscious mind actually has a a blueprint of your of your body at perfect health that homeostasis.
Yeah, so it knows what that looks like for you. Yes. And if you can just tap into that, if you can just sort of like, let it be, you’re going to be much healthier, you know, for sure. Your subconscious mind is always trying to get you there. And we fight it, we fight it every day, we have a lot of this has to do with us wanting just wanting to feel good, we just want to feel good. I want to eat that bag, you know, of potato chips, because that’s salt in the ocean fad is just gonna make me finish sugar from the, you know, she’s gonna feel so good.
Chris Wissman
They have actual scientists that are behind, like, like flavor profiling now, so they don’t, I don’t even think they do nearly as many taste tests as I used to, they know it’s gonna taste good. It’s gonna, it’s gonna trigger our brain, and we’re gonna want more of it. And it’s already sugar. Yeah. And you have the brain addicted, the Holy Trinity, right?
Yeah, we can talk about something. So you mentioned the standard American diet. And what the standard American diet for you and I did was create disease, it may not have showed its face and shown its face. It’s like an actual, like a modern day disease yet, but we probably had a lot of different things going on with us, whether it be mood dysregulation, or aches and pains, or maybe weight gain or whatever it might have been.
But when our gut gets that much stress, it starts to become permeable. And you’ve heard everyone talk about leaky gut. And that’s kind of a really common topic to talk about. But the thing that I really love to dive into is something called visceral somatic inhibition. And those are just a bunch of fancy words for saying, when our gut is inflamed, that it’s taking over the nervous system response, the blood flow, and the hydration from the surrounding musculature.
The musculature is connected on those on those different on those nervous system pathways to protect itself. So when our organs are in bad shape from something like the standard American diet, or from maybe negative self talk, then our core, our transverse abdominis, and all these things don’t really have the opportunity to run at maximum capacity.
But when all the nutrients are taken away from the musculature and put in towards the organs, our liver and our in our gut and our small, large intestines, then we’re losing the availability to even use our core properly. And then we go down that rabbit hole of like, this is potentially where low back injuries come from, you know, our inner unit shut off, it can’t even work, right.
So it’s just all these stabilizing muscles up our spine that are responsible to take all the load of the spine and support us. And I’m sure they get mad, you know, and they want to shut down as well and take a break. So it’s very interesting to see what all these stressors can do on our body. And one of them is shut our core off. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s wild. And so like you said, though, the most powerful things in line if we continue that positive mindset, you can heal your gut through that. Just know that.
Patrick McGilvray
Fascinating. So give me one tip that we can take away as long distance runners. So if I’m running a half marathon or a marathon or an ultra marathon, you know, what’s something we can do? What would you recommend if you just met somebody at a party and you were like, Hey, do this one thing that’ll help you a lot.
Chris Wissman
Sleep and breathe, sleep and breathe. The more we can, but those are going to be really important as far as our availability to perform the next day, no matter what. Like your lifestyle prior to the couple of weeks before the race is going to be what it is. But if we can get a good sleeping pattern set, set and balance our circadian rhythm. Like you mentioned, we can come back in homeostasis relatively easy enough, we can start reincorporating diaphragmatic breathing, which would just be breathing down the deepest layers of our lungs and quit the panic breathing up into our chest. If we can breathe low and not high, then I think it would really set yourself up for some good endurance.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, how long does it take to for that sleeping pattern to kind of have an effect like is it right away?
Chris Wissman
I mean, I mean think about it the next day after you sleep eight hour you feel infinitely better than if you slept five. Especially again, everybody’s really different. Some people can get away with less but I wear an aura ring. And I know when my REM sleep is off. I know when my heart rate variability is often when my heart rate is elevated and it’s and really I don’t even need it because I can just tell it’s funny because I knew I just needed some reassurance and sleep affects so much. It’s so important to just sleep in a cool dark room. Try to get rid of the blue light before you go to bed and just get a good night’s sleep. And that’s helps me more than most things.
Patrick McGilvray
And then diaphragmatic breathing, that’s kind of like what you would call belly breathing. Is that right?
Chris Wissman
Yes, yeah. And you can get really complex with it. But if you just train yourself maybe lying on the ground, and expanding 360 degrees around your stomach, your back and your hips, and then coming back in, if you could expand 360 degrees, you know, efficiently learn to essentially diaphragmatically breathe. And my partner Jen is a expert with breath, if you ever want to talk with her, so she can, she can niche out on that.
Patrick McGilvray
I’ll be getting her on here, for sure. Cool. Is that something we can do while we’re running to that diaphragmatic breathing is that?
Chris Wissman
Yeah, it definitely will help. It will definitely help. And as long as you can handle maybe trying to train yourself to nasal breathing. I’ve read that that really helps her endurance. I don’t know, I don’t want to speak out of context. I don’t know the science behind that. I think Jen would be able to speak to that better. But no matter what I know that the guy frantically diaphragmatically breathing will help you whether or not you transition from nasal to mouth while you’re running is something that I’m not as familiar with yet.
Patrick McGilvray
I’ve done the nasal breathing while running. In fact, Jen and I, she gave me some tips when I was training for my 100.
Chris Wissman
Oh, cool.
Patrick McGilvray
So she yeah, so she helped me with that. And it worked for me for slower paces, you know, because you get to a point where you just I couldn’t get enough air to my cells.
Chris Wissman
Yeah, you have to oxygenate.
Patrick McGilvray
And so it was like mouth and nose and ears, anything I could just open up to get as much air in. But then there’s a lot to be said about that. Nasal Breathing. So we’ll get into that later. But that’s cool. That’s cool stuff. Heck, yeah, man. All right. Thanks, Chris. for hanging out with me. I know, I didn’t really know where this conversation was going to go. And it kind of went in a bunch of different directions. And that’s awesome. I just love to have these conversations with you. Where can people reach out to learn more about you or to learn more about Real Human Performance?
Chris Wissman
Real Human Performance on Instagram spelled out just like it sounds. And that’s where Jen and myself are and there’s a couple of our co-workers that are awesome coaches there. And my personal Instagram is @wissmansworld. But I do all my business there, so you can check both of them out. I do my weird stuff on my personal page. I’ll do like ice plunges and ice cold showers, and just act like a wild man and get out in nature and then keep it more professional at Real.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, you don’t have to keep it that professional. You’re not that, why is that wild? Honestly, good. Okay, cool. So thanks again. This has been awesome. Looking forward to having another conversation like this with you sometimes.
Chris Wissman
I really appreciate the opportunity to vomit my thoughts everywhere.
Patrick McGilvray
We love being the recipient of your vomit.
Chris Wissman
What a way to end.
Patrick McGilvray
Did you know that most runners fail to reach their goals? It’s not because of lack of training, lack of desire, whether it’s running faster or running farther, I believe most runners just haven’t developed the mental toughness they need to get them across the finish line. That’s why I created a step by step training called How to Build Mental Toughness and Become A Badass Runner. I want to show you how to train your mind so you can tough it out when the going gets tough. And the best part, this comprehensive training is yours absolutely free. To get it right now just go to innerfiretribe.com/badass and get started today.
Recently I had the chance to talk with someone I really admire, someone I've been watching from a distance. One of the reasons I've been paying attention to Melanie Owen is because she's a lot like me …
Patrick McGilvray
My name is Patrick McGilvray, and I’m an experienced marathoner, ultra runner, running coach and mindset expert. I believe mindset is the most powerful and most underrated tool you have as a runner. So I’ve devoted my life to helping runners like you develop the mindset you need to fuel your inner fire and become the badass runner you were meant to be. This is The Running Mind podcast.
Welcome to The Running Mind podcast. I’m your host, Patrick McGilvray. And today, I have a very cool interview for you. I got a chance to talk to somebody that I really admire, somebody that I’ve kind of been watching from a distance, not in a weird, stalky way, more of a social media way.
And the reason I say that is because she’s an average runner, she’s a weekend warrior like me, and most likely like you, you know, she works a job. She runs for fun, she runs because she loves it. And in a short amount of time, she’s done some pretty incredible things. She’s got a pretty cool running resume.
In fact, in 2018, she ran Badwater, and actually had to pull herself out of the race. And if you don’t know anything about Badwater, Badwater 135 is a 135 mile run through Death Valley. So you start at Death Valley. In July, temperatures get above 120 degrees. I know, right? It’s crazy. So not only do you have to run through that heat, but to finish the race, you have to ascend Mount Whitney, which is the highest point in the contiguous United States.
And you don’t go to the very top of Mount Whitney, which is over 14,000 feet, but you do go up to the 8300 foot level. All in all, Badwater is not only the hardest race in the world, but it is one of the hardest because of the elevation gain, there’s something like 14,000 feet of vertical ascent in the race. So it’s challenging from many angles.
She has a really cool, inspirational story of some setbacks, but also, she talks about the mental fortitude that it takes to run a race like that. And she actually went back to Badwater in 2019. And I’ll let her tell you what happened there. And just a little side note, she talks quite a bit about Harvey Lewis.
And if you’re not familiar, who, with who Harvey Lewis is, he is a local high school teacher here in Cincinnati. But he’s also one of the top ultra runners on the planet. You know, he won Badwater back in 2014. He finished it in under 24 hours. He has, I believe, the eighth fastest known time running the Appalachian Trail. And he represents Team USA in the 24 hour World Championships. So he’s the real deal.
He’s local to Cincinnati and a friend of Melanie’s. And so she was able to connect with him. And he was able to coach her for her Badwater experience, and she’ll talk a lot about that. Lots of good stuff in this interview with Melanie Owen. So let’s just get into it right now.
Today, I’m joined by Melanie Owen. Melanie has been intriguing me over the last couple of years. And I was really excited when she agreed to come on here and talk to me on the podcast because Melanie is your average runner. She’s unassuming, meaning that she’s just humble and approachable and is not you know, professional athlete. She’s not been to the Olympics. Unless you’ve been as a spectator, Melanie.
I don’t know. She’s not, you know, qualified for Olympics. You know, she’s not some professional runner with all these accolades. She’s an average person that has done some pretty amazing things and I’ve been super excited to talk to you about those things. I’ve been following you the last couple of years Melanie, secretly stalking you, and you’re in endeavors. And you know, we’re going to talk about that.
But tell me how you got into running like, what was it about running that drew you in?
Melanie Owen
Yeah, so actually this started many, many, many years ago in the seventh grade, or actually, yeah, seventh grade, going out for the track team. And really, back at Toronto High School, Toronto Middle School, joined the track team and just love being part of, you know, a team atmosphere. And then also it was individual. So I really liked that. And I just continued running through high school and then into college. And then after college, I was like, what am I gonna do? I love this. And so then I continued with running marathons. That’s how I got what got me into it.
Patrick McGilvray
So you just started running marathons. And what got you into the ultra distances?
Melanie Owen
One of my running friends, Harvey Lewis, every Friday morning, we would do these stair runs throughout Cincinnati. And I would hear him and Jeff Harmon and some of these other runners talk about this 24 hour north coast race up in Cleveland. And so I was like 24 hours, you got to run over 24 hours.
And so I thought, I don’t know if I can run for 24 hours, that it really intrigued me. Like, I think I want to do that. Everybody thought it was crazy. But I signed up for my first 24 hour race. And I was able to run a little over 85 miles in 24 hours.
And so after I did that I didn’t even know about Badwater and had no idea the race existed. And that was about five years ago, and I heard about it, read some articles about Harvey in the paper. And I’m like, I want to do that race. And of course, then my friends were like, now you’re really crazy. You’re just an average runner that ran one 24 hour race. And now you want to jump all the way to Badwater.
Patrick McGilvray
I just want to stop you there and just say that this is not a normal progression, even for ultra runners to go from like, oh, I just ran a marathon to I think a 24 hour race would be fun. And then to go to I think I’m gonna do Badwater. Badwater is, in case people don’t know, is considered the world’s toughest foot race. It’s 135 miles through Death Valley. You start, you know, running through Death Valley, it’s 130 degrees at times.
And then you finish, you know, close to the peak of Mount Whitney, which is I think you finish at about 8300 feet, if I’m not mistaken. But 14 over 14,000 feet of total elevation gain, like, oh, my God, it’s, yeah, it’s obvious why it’s considered the world’s toughest foot race. So you went from, you know, running marathons to Badwater and what time frame was that? Like, how many years apart was like your first marathon to you running Badwater?
Melanie Owen
Yeah, so my first marathon was in 1992. It was a Columbus marathon. And I was right out of college. And I actually ran like a 3:46. And at the time, I just missed qualifying for Boston. And, you know, I didn’t even know about the Boston relay back then.
But then, you know, for years, I chased and I wanted to qualify for Boston. And I was always within a few seconds, meaning like within a minute or two minutes. And it was just really disappointing, because it kept moving the carrot, as I call it, they kept changing the qualifying times. So I finally decided, you know what, I need to try something different. I’m not succeeding with this marathon thing. And with was my job, I travel a lot.
So that’s when I decided maybe if I run slower, but longer, I’ll be good at it. And so that’s why I jumped over and thought, well, running for 24 hours, maybe I could do that. And then I heard about the Badwater raise, and I was like, wow, I want to do that. But the key to that is that Harvey approached me, who then became my running coach, because he was like, now, this is serious.
Like, you can’t just go from doing a marathon, to doing a 24 hour race, and then think you’re just going to be able to do Badwater, you need a coach, somebody who’s going to help you along the way. And I read up about Harvey and he was a friend of mine, but I didn’t know about all these amazing races he does.
So I was like, Okay, I’m gonna be trained by the best. So he became my running coach. And, you know, he really is the one we meet with him each week, either through, you know, text message or in person. And we’d put a plan in place to really get to the point of getting into Badwater and then, you know, succeeding to finish the race.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah. So you first did Badwater in 2018. Kind of walk me through, kind of, maybe a little bit about oh, you’re training for that. But I want to hear about your experience at Badwater. Your first Badwater?
Melanie Owen
Well, maybe we should take a step back and talk about the experience to actually get to Badwater because I don’t want to do it. Yeah, the average runner to think, Oh, you could just follow miles footsteps and it’s gonna happen. It doesn’t work that way. Especially if you’re a normal person like me that works, you know, a normal job and you’re trying to fit this crazy training schedule, into your work schedule in your home life.
Like, you have to have a nice balance. And so to do that, it took me a really long time like so, and I didn’t succeed the first time. I tried to complete my first 100 miler. So to get into Badwater, you need at least three 100 mile races, the last one needs to be within 18 months of registering for the race.
Now, when I was trying to register for the race, it was within the last 12 months, but they have since changed the qualifications. And so to do that, I mean, I had to build up my resume. And you can’t just say, okay, I’m going to run this 100 miler, because not all 100 milers equal, you know, the same as running a 100 miler.
So you want to try to run races that are close to the environment that you’re going to be exposed to when you run Badwater. So like the key is 100. I’ve, I’ve run and completed that three times and building up my resume. Tunnel Hill, I did that one because it was later in the year and I needed 100 miler in order to qualify, you know, meet the qualifications to even apply for the 2018 race.
So I did meet my qualifications. Plus, I did several of these 24 hour races that I do, like I like that being out there and just run as many miles as you can do and 24 hours, those are fun. And plus, you’re seeing the same people usually it’s on a one mile, you know, track that you’re passing people and seeing the same people over and over again.
But so I met the qualifications. And that process was, you know, it’s not just you apply, and you’re in, you have to go through this application process, answer questions about yourself, I had to get resumes from folks that I crewed with, because that was another thing, they want to make sure you’ve experienced it.
And in order to do that, you need to crew a few times, so you know exactly what you’re getting into before you go out there. So I did all this in about a four year period of time. I applied in 2018. And I got in the first year that I applied. Unfortunately, though, when I toed the line, to start the race, I didn’t know that I had five kidney stones in my body. And it really caused some problems as I started to run the race. I had no urine output. And that’s not a race that you can go and run and not, you know, make sure your kidneys are functioning properly.
So it was a decision. Unfortunately, when I did get to the starting line, I felt okay. But I could tell within like three miles about three miles, something was not right with my body. And we got to about mile 42. And I was falling behind with the time limits that were allowed. And I possibly could have made the time limit. But if mile 42 I met with medics and they’re like, there’s another year for you. And it was made to drop.
And it wasn’t till after that I went home had testing done and found I had five kidney stones and a severe bladder infection. So we took care of that. Yeah. But it was disappointing, you know, to draw drop out after taking my crew out there and not being able to finish the race. So I had some unfinished business to do.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, no kidding. And just to backtrack a little bit. I understand that crewing Badwater is, I mean, it’s very, very challenging. It’s not like you just go out there and be like, Yeah, I’m just gonna run. I understand a lot of the crew end up in the med tents at Badwater.
Melanie Owen
Yeah, I mean, some of them could just if they didn’t properly train, because you know, they have to heat train as well and make sure that they’re taking nutrition because they may be when you pace up there, you’re not in front of the running or behind them, you’re spraying them down and sometimes you forget about yourself, so I could see how that could happen.
And so that also is really important when you’re selecting your crew who to take out there and making sure you’re giving guidance on proper heat training. And the thing about Badwater they’re really good about having a library of different training materials available, not just for the runner, but for the you know, the crew too. The expectations of the race director are that the crew and the runner, they have webcast, like many months in advance leading up to the race so that all participants, racer and crew members are prepared.
Patrick McGilvray
Oh, that’s smart. So you end up with these kidney stones, oh, my gosh, sounds terrible. You get through 40 ish miles. And you basically get pulled out of the race. So what was your mental state at that point?
Melanie Owen
Devastation, because you spend like all this money in the training, in the race, getting your crew out there, the crew and the runner is so excited you want the goal is to get to the finish line. Unfortunately, my crew, there was nothing they could have done to help me get better. And I just wanted to clarify that the race did not pull me, I made a decision with the medics. Yeah, to drop from the race.
They strongly suggested, but it was mainly because I made a promise to my husband, if there were any chances that my health could be in danger. I would stop. That was one thing that I did tell him. And I think that if for anybody, if you’re married, you better have that pact, that you’re not going to push yourself to the point where it’s really going to put you in harm’s way.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, yeah. And that race is no joke, like you do not mess around with that race. You know, like you said, you know, you’re not urinating or, you know, your sodium levels get too low or whatever, like, you have got to take care of yourself, because it’s such an extreme environment. Everything’s compounded. Everything’s magnified, you know,
Melanie Owen
Oh, absolutely, with the heat, and just the mileage that you’re doing. And not just, you’re going below sea level and climbing the whole way. Ups and downs, and it may not be exactly the same terrain that you’re doing your training on. I mean, in Cincinnati, I looked up trying to find the steepest mountain, or I should say, hills that I could train on, just to get ready for this race, which didn’t even compare to the, you know, running environment that I was going to be exposed to out there.
Patrick McGilvray
So how do you do that? Like, how do you train? How do you train for the heat in an environment? Like, here in the Midwest, where I mean, it gets hot and humid in the summertime, but nothing like the heat of the desert out there? How do you train for that? How do you prepare yourself?
Melanie Owen
Yeah, so what I did was my first year, I was using sauna suits, and just putting a lot of heavy clothing on, I didn’t have really access to saunas, where I could go in, you know, for maybe a few minutes each day and build up, because you don’t want to go into the sauna. And so first day, I’m not gonna be in there for 30 minutes, you maybe do five minutes, then 10 minutes, and then you build up the time that you can stay in the sauna, because it is extremely hot in there, and you’re sweating a lot.
And you need to make sure that you take plenty of fluids in there. But so, so my training was more just putting heavy clothing on and things like that. The second year, though, when I got in this past year, I did a completely different type of training, I did have exposure to saunas, because I travel a lot for work. So I would stay in hotels that had a sauna, so that I could make sure that I was using that particular type of heat training.
But I also purchased an in house, sauna, a portable one, where I can, ya know, my head wasn’t exposed, but it was up to my head. And I could sit in there. And that really helped. And then also Harvey suggested, you know, sitting in there, then go run and get a cold shower and then come back in it and just the different changes for your body. And I really feel that the heat training is probably more important than the you know, getting the distance and the running in. Because I felt like this year I was better prepared for the heat than the previous year.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, so let’s talk about that. So you made a decision shortly after you weren’t able to complete your first Badwater in 2018. And you were like, oh, I’ve got some unfinished business here. I’m gonna take care of this thing. So did you know like right away you were going to enter the race the following year and finish?
Melanie Owen
Well, I had always hoped that I would finish this year but with that said, that wasn’t the game plan. But yeah, so immediately after my, yeah, my DNF as we call it, in racing. You know, I had a talk with Harvey. And what makes him great as a coach is that, you know, he sat me down and said, you know what, put this one behind you, let’s focus on qualifications to get in next year.
So we thought we needed one 100 mile race, but then we found out that the qualifications changed. So I went ahead and I did the Daytona 100 uncrewed. So I just had my backpack and I ran from Atlanta beach to Daytona Beach. And I finished the race and it was a great race. And yeah, I felt great after finishing that race. Okay, I’m back in this week. Yeah, so that really, that was in December of last year. And so that gave me my qualifications, which I really didn’t need that 100 miler, but it was an added bonus. Yeah.
Patrick McGilvray
Awesome. So then you started training for Badwater 2019. And you did talk a little bit about your training and how you did some things differently, you know, what was the heat training, was there anything else you changed about the way you approached the race or your training?
Melanie Owen
Yes. So, you know, we went back and we looked, and I was working, you know, like, 70 hour work weeks, the year prior, now, I was still working 60-70 hours. But the one thing that we noticed when we compared notes, because every week, I’d give an update.
And so we looked and it was sleep, I wasn’t sleeping very well. And so I needed to make sure I was getting, you know, at least seven, eight hours of sleep. And being consistent with that, as well. As, you know, I was eating better, you know, I’m not a vegetarian or vegan, like most runners, I will have a hamburger every now and then. But I’m not going to restrict that from my diet.
And to be honest, leading up to my races, I feel if I have a hamburger, or at least more protein in my diet, it helps me do better in my longer races. But I was watching the type of foods that I was eating and also taking in more fluids. But I would say the one thing that helped me was getting better sleep leading up to the races.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, and sleep is really underrated. You know, and a lot of people don’t think of that as part of your training, they just think of it as like, oh, I better just get some sleep, you know, but it’s such a key ingredient, you know, you’ve got your strength training, you’ve got your endurance training, your aerobic training, and then you’ve got your nutrition, and then you’ve got your rest. And your rest is so vital.
You know, that’s when you, you know, rebuild cells, that’s when you you know, build muscle, that’s when you strengthen the neurological connections, you know, you’re building neural pathways and like, it’s just key to your overall physiologic physiology and strength as a runner. So good for you for noticing that and getting more sleep. That’s a lot of hours to be working too, by the way.
Melanie Owen
I don’t know if you talk to your boss, but I do cancer research. So it’s very rewarding. And, you know, there’s a lot of research going on right now. So, yeah, sometimes it’s not always like that, but it’s been pretty crazy. This past year.
Patrick McGilvray
So how about like, mentally? How are you mentally different going into this Badwater this year? 2019. How did you prepare for that mentally?
Melanie Owen
Yeah. So I was on my way out to Death Valley. My friend and coach Harvey, he was like, now let’s talk about the things that you already know going into this race. What are those positives that we need to focus on that are going to put you in the right mindset?
And so I had the experience of already running 42 miles, I already had that experience of knowing what went well, what didn’t go well, and I could fix those things. I had my crew from the prior year helping me on providing guidance on what they thought you know, I should change up with. Because I did select a different crew for 2019.
And so that helped having, you know, eight people now because there’s four members on a crew, and so I had eight people that really could come together and help me even though the truth as an ‘18 crew, we didn’t get to the finish line. They were very much still part of my training, and also my preparation to get the Badwater.
Patrick McGilvray
That’s awesome. What a great community. I love the running community.
Melanie Owen
Yeah, it’s great. But that’s what I did was focus on those positives. And also, there were a lot of Cincinnati runners that were returning from the prior year. And so I had all of them that were going to be out there. And I saw many of them on the course. And I don’t know if we’re gonna go into 2019. But one of those runners, I really feel running with him for I think it was like, we ran 70 some miles together. Really got me to the finish line.
Patrick McGilvray
Who was that?
Melanie Owen
Nick leboff.
Patrick McGilvray
Awesome. Yeah, yeah, I was just looking at the stats. And there were like four or five people from Cincinnati running Badwater this year. I mean, that’s cool. That’s really cool. What a fun community to be a part of, you know. So you’re out there, you’re running Badwater this year, you’re feeling better. I know that there were times when things were getting tough for you out there, I know that there’s no way you’re going to tell me that it was a piece of cake. So how do you deal with that? Mentally, especially when things get hard in a race like that?
Melanie Owen
So I don’t know if I sent you my story of a Badwater. If not, I will send it to you after this. But I did write. So it’s about 25 pages long. But it talks about, you know, from five years ago, my start to my big dream I had to getting across the finish line. So I’ll share that with you.
But to answer your question regarding you know, in any race that you do that is even in America, and you could have dark moments, and you just have to know yourself and find a way to get out of them. And so my crew that I selected, my crew chief was Jack Corey. And Jack and I have been running together for about five years and definitely knows me quite well, we actually were at tri state running and we were pacers there to help the marathon runners, so he knows me very well.
And there were moments where I’m gonna be honest, I was about at mile 67. And you’re going down into the Panamint Valley and Springs Valley. And it was extremely hot, there were like 30 mile an hour winds coming at you. And I think the temperatures were over 120, it was really, really hot. And it was really affecting me.
And at one point, I did go into the vehicle in front of the AC and I was like, I’m not having fun. I think I’m gonna stop. And so that’s where the crew can really help the runner because your mind is just in a bad place. You know, you don’t, you feel like you ran 67 miles in, you know, Death Valley in, you know, over 100 degree temperatures.
And so that’s where the crew can really help you and say, you know what, that’s how you’re supposed to feel. And quite honestly, you probably should feel worse than that. But I don’t know if you know, but I was in last place coming into mile 72, like the last runner that came in to meet the cut off.
And so I came in, and they were like, oh, here’s the last runner. And it was at that point where I was debating, should I go on? Should I stop? And you know, I just got something to eat, took a shower, and we decided, let’s go up this mountain. We’ll try to get to the next cut off. If we make it we’ll continue on. If not, that’s the end of my race. So I never, I felt like I wanted to give up but I never did.
I wasn’t entirely there and that it takes the crew to help you get out of that place. Because sometimes if you’re by yourself, you’re just gonna say maybe this is it for me. And it really took the crew to just rally around me and say, man, you look way better than some of these other runners. Now let’s get going. And that’s what we did. We really did.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, and being in you know, you said last place that in that race, it doesn’t mean anything. It means you’re still you know, in contention to finish Badwater. What does that mean?
Melanie Owen
Well, the funniest part about this is many people were tracking me and there was a big delay, and I had people sending me text messages. Don’t you stop now. It’s like, I didn’t see them until after so it was funny to get those text messages because so many people were rooting for me. Like you said, I’m just like this average runner, that just loves to run and had this crazy big goal that I really wanted to run Badwater, but not only run it, I was going to finish. And it took me two years, two times to finish. But the first year I mean, I don’t know any runner that could have finished with five kidney stones.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, you get a pass on that one. Totally. That’s just come on, like nothing you can do you know about that. So you, you end up finishing and tell me, you know, walk me through the finish of Badwater and how that felt for you.
Melanie Owen
Yeah, well, if I could just say a few comments regarding miles 72 to the end. Some runners who are ever in this situation. So like I said, I was in last place. And so you’re going up this mountain, then you have to really just like dig in and say you got this. And that’s when I started to pass people was climbing up to Father Crowley, which is a really steep part of the course.
And so at that point, I was just power walking. But I just kept getting more and more confidence about finishing the race. So mile 90, I met the cut off by over an hour, I continued on and I was, you know, running. So I got to mile 100. I’m still running, you know, sun’s coming up. My crew, they got the van there, dancing for me and singing.
And that’s when Nick leboff and I were going back and forth and back and forth. And so we had his crew, my crew, and they were just rooting for us to just keep going. And it wasn’t until around maybe mile, I want to say 108, something like that when Nick finally went ahead a little bit. But then, you know, when I got to Lone Pine, that was the moment where I was like, I got this.
And so you know you have a half marathon left, and you just climb all the way up to the Mount Whitney portal. And that’s exactly what we did. And that actually was probably the strongest void for me was going up that last 13.1 miles. I passed, I think like five people in that time going up that mountain to come to the finish line.
And you know, when I finished one thing that I did do is I handed Chris Cosman a note thanking him for letting me get back into the race. Because I mean, he could have selected any runners and there’s a committee that selects the runners. But to come back after a DNF and given me that opportunity. And now I’m like tearing up about this, but it’s very emotional.
But also I wanted to prove to people because there’s been many people say to me, how did you get into Badwater like, really? And so to all those people that have ever said that it’s surrounding yourself by people who really know what it takes to get the job done, meaning to get the finish.
So I had Harvey as my running coach, I had so many friends in the running community, I had tri state running like, Cameron, he invites me over there all the time, you know, he’s like, if you’re ever in town, come on over. And so there’s running groups like that, that just support you, and say you can do this. So an average runner can get into Badwater, and you can finish it, but it takes a lot of work, but it’s a lot of fun.
Patrick McGilvray
Well, I don’t want you to sell yourself short. Because, you know, you talked about the people that helped you to get there and the people that supported you and that you surrounded yourself with, but you also have an amazing, you know, drive and an amazing spirit.
You’re, you’re positive, you know, you’ve got this really happy, positive demeanor, and that’s going to take you places where a lot of people can’t, can’t go, you know. I think attitude is so key, you know, and when you have this, you know, inner fire, I like to call it when you have this drive and you have this mental, like toughness and this drive to accomplish something amazing. People are really attracted to that. And people want to be a part of that and they want to help you. And you definitely have got that you know, you have what it takes Melanie, to do that badass stuff like this.
Melanie Owen
You know, it’s funny you say that. I went back for a high school reunion. And my running, my track coach happened to be there. And he said to me, congratulations on your finish at Badwater. He’s like I had no doubt that you were not going to finish this race. He’s like, you know why? He’s like when you were in high school, you used to tell everybody, nobody’s going to beat me in the last 100 yards. Well, in this race, you’re really racing against yourself. Yes, there’s other runners out there. But I was not going to be beat, not in 2019. And the last like half marathon of the race, once I got to Lone Pine, I just knew I was gonna finish it.
Patrick McGilvray
So take me to that one moment. You crossed the finish line. You feeling all the feelings? Was it everything you thought it was gonna be?
Melanie Owen
It was better. It was better. Yeah. You know, I was so great. I was. I really thought it because I was in the back of the pack finishing the race. I mean, I finished and I’m sorry, if I don’t get it exactly right. But I think it was 44 hours, 56 minutes, maybe 33 seconds.
I’m sorry, if the seconds are off, maybe it was 32 seconds, but it was almost 45 hours. And the cut off is 48 hours. So you know, I’m in the back of the pack. And what was great was how many people were at the finish line waiting for me. I can tell you the Cincinnati crew like they were all there. Harvey had finished the race and came back. And he’s like jogging to get to the finish line, just to sort of see he was there. I mean, it was great. Kelly, Harvey’s fiance, like, everybody was there. And to have all that support. And then also the community back home. I mean, my Facebook was blowing up.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, I’m looking at your time here. 44:56:33.
Melanie Owen
Oh, so I was right. Okay. Well, I know that I get upset about it if it’s wrong.
Patrick McGilvray
And then I see your DNF, last year not DFL. You had it looks like you pass like seven people. So there were seven people that finished after you. So damn, that’s awesome. Awesome, strong finish, you know? Yeah,
Melanie Owen
Yes. You know, so I guess the advice that I would give to anybody, you know, no matter if you’re in last place at any point in a race, just keep going. Just keep going. And don’t worry about that. Because I will say that, hearing that I was the last runner coming in to meet the cutoff. That did bother me a little bit. But then my crew talked to me, and they actually turned that around. They were like, who cares? You’re gonna go up and you’re gonna finish this race and you’re gonna pass people along the way. So it really helped.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, do you think that kind of like sparked a little something in you? A little bit of a, of a passion to like, I’m gonna I’m not gonna be last?
Melanie Owen
Well, actually, they were like, next is right up ahead. Do you know why you may be able to catch him? And believe it or not? I did. I actually had to pull him out of the van a few times. Yeah, we were just playing off each other.
Patrick McGilvray
What an amazing experience. And I just love the fact that you are a weekend warrior, you know, like, like me and like a lot of runners like we do this for fun. And it’s, uh, it’s challenging. We do this to push ourselves, we do it to see what we’re made of, you know, and if we inspire people along the way, awesome.
But, you know, you work a full time job, a very full time job. And you’re doing this for fun, and you’re able to accomplish something amazing like that. So, like I said, I’ve been kind of, you know, Facebook, stalking you and watching your story. And it’s just intrigued me, like, I need to know more about this. I’m really glad you took the time to chat with me about your journey here today. What’s next for you?
Melanie Owen
Well, in less than two weeks, December 7th and 8th I’m running Daytona 100 again, uncrewed. I had a business meeting in Orlando. So I’m gonna head over to Linac beach and run that race and then continue on my business travels.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, most people they’re like, yeah, I’m going out of town on business. I’m gonna go for a run. They think you know, like three miles or something like that. You’re like, I’m just gonna do this 100.
Melanie Owen
Well, I’ve been trying to keep my base at a certain mileage so that I can continue running, you know Ultras, and yes, we’ll see after that, maybe first of the year, I will try to go back to maybe qualify for Boston, we’ll see.
Patrick McGilvray
Oh, awesome.Very cool. So if people wanted to get in touch with you or reach out and connect with you, how would they do that?
Melanie Owen
Yeah, they can contact me through Facebook, it’s Melanie Owen. Or they could send me an email at melanieowen10@hotmail.com
Patrick McGilvray
All right, cool. Awesome. Well, I’m really inspired by your story. And I’m really happy that you came and shared this with me. I loved getting to know you here today. So thank you, Melanie.
Melanie Owen
Yeah, thanks. I really enjoyed this. So of course, talking about Badwater was like my best running experience today.
Patrick McGilvray
Did you know that most runners fail to reach their goals? It’s not because of lack of training, lack of desire, whether it’s running faster or running farther, I believe most runners just haven’t developed the mental toughness they need to get them across the finish line. That’s why I created a step by step training called How to Build Mental Toughness and Become A Badass Runner. I want to show you how to train your mind so you can tough it out when the going gets tough. And the best part, this comprehensive training is yours absolutely free. To get it right now just go to innerfiretribe.com/badass and get started today.
Ian Burrell is a 2:13 marathoner and in 2015 he finished 25th at the Marathon World Championships in Beijing. It says something about how fierce the competition was if a 2:13 time gets you 25th …
Patrick McGilvray
My name is Patrick McGilvray, and I’m an experienced marathoner, ultra runner, running coach and mindset expert. I believe mindset is the most powerful and most underrated tool you have as a runner. So I’ve devoted my life to helping runners like you develop the mindset you need to fuel your inner fire and become the badass runner you were meant to be. This is The Running Mind podcast.
Hey there, and welcome to The Running Mind podcast. My name is Patrick McGilvray. I am your host today, I guess every day. Today, I’ve got an awesome interview to share with you. I talked with Ian Burrell a while back. And if you don’t know who Ian Burrell is, he is a 2:13 marathoner.
And in 2015, he finished 25th at the World Championships in Beijing, which tells you how fierce the competition was that he finished 25th with a time of 2:13. Crazy, Ian is officially retired from elite competition, he still runs, he lives in Colorado Springs with his wife and kids. And he even talks about like, which is harder? Running the marathon at the elite level or being a parent of small children. So we get into that.
But we talked about setting goals, but letting go with the results. We talked about his experience, his incredible experience running the world championships in Beijing, such a cool story, how he mentally prepares for events like that. And just, it was a really fun conversation. He’s such a great guy. I know you’re gonna get a lot out of this. So I will stop talking.
Without further ado, here’s my conversation with Ian Burrell. All right.
Well, today I’m joined by Ian Burrell. And am I saying that the right way?
Ian Burrell
That’s correct.
Patrick McGilvray
Awesome. And we’re just going to talk a little bit about really kind of what it takes to accomplish some big things at the elite level of running. I don’t want to give too much away. So I’m just gonna let you Ian kind of tell us like, how you got your start, like, why running for you? You know, sure. What, what was it that got you to be interested in that?
Ian Burrell
Yeah, absolutely. So running for me, kind of started with my family. My dad was a runner in college. And it was something that he tried to get me into an early age, I resisted quite a bit. When I was younger, I wanted to play soccer, I wanted to play basketball, I wanted to play other sports. And I wasn’t too interested in running.
But as I kind of got older, and realized that my 5’6 130 pound found frame wasn’t going to be the next all star point guard, I started looking at some other running or some other sports. And that kind of led me to running as an outlet. And I always had a ton of energy as a kid as well. So my parents were probably pretty happy when I started running, to kind of mellow me out a little bit.
So as I started, you know, I probably didn’t run seriously until maybe sophomore or junior year of high school. And before that point, you know, I’ve never really trained a whole lot just kind of off and on. And those years, probably later, sophomore year, early junior year is when I started to become more dedicated towards it. I started training in the summers, and really started putting in miles in pursuit of accomplishing my goals.
And from there, it was just, you know, kind of one goal after the other. I will say, in starting running, one of the things that I always remember is, I remember telling my Dad, I want to be a really good runner. And I was expecting to get this, “Oh, that sounds great. Let’s get started. That’s awesome.”
But as soon as I said that, he turned to me and said, All right, well, talk is cheap. So you better go out and start doing it then. And so I kind of always had that in the back of my mind that all right, yeah, you know, I have the goals. I can say it, but it’s time to go out and actually do it. And you know, I kind of put my head down from there and just started accomplishing one goal after the other obviously did and, you know, accomplished all my goals that I wanted to. But that’s the way it goes with running. But that’s what kind of led me to my start.
Patrick McGilvray
Cool. Was there a moment in time when you can look back and go, like, that was the moment that like, got me hooked on running? I know for me, it was running my first marathon, you know, I had run a couple of 5k’s and like a 10k.
But then when I ran my first marathon, I, you know, I trained, terribly trained on my own, didn’t really know what I was doing. I think my longest run was 16 miles. And I was like, close enough, you know. And then the moment I crossed that finish line at my first Flying Pig marathon in Cincinnati, the moment I crossed that finish line, I felt all the feelings, you know, just that elation, the joy, the sense of accomplishment. And my first thought was, man, I need to do that again. And it was just like, hooked. I was hooked on that. Was there a moment like that for you, that was just like, man, that I need to do more of this?
Ian Burrell
To an extent, yes. But you know, I think you hit the nail on the head, that if you kind of can boil it down to a decision that you make where you make a decision, and it said, hey, I need to do this, I need to start running more I need to train. For me, that decision is something I made. And it was kind of around that same time of, you know, my sophomore/freshman year in high school, where my decision wasn’t necessarily that, hey, I love to run, this is something that I really enjoyed doing and want to be a part of, it was a, I want to be really good at something.
And I have this talent right now in running, and I want to get everything I can out of it. And try to be the best runner that, you know, that I can possibly be through training, you know, my goal, at the very beginning was to be you know, gold medal at the Olympics. And that was my singular focus. And that was my decision that I made at that time. And it was, no matter where my career took me it was, it always was going to end up on the top box at the Olympics.
That’s what I wanted more than anything. And from that age. Most of my goals, and my training was geared towards that that was what I was going to do. And it was that decision that, you know, similar to your experience, when you finish your marathon, you had that, you know, kind of moment where you said, Okay, this is what I’m going to do. My moment was sometime in early high school where I said, this is what I want to do, and I need to do everything I can in order to accomplish that.
Patrick McGilvray
So first of all, amazing that you, how old were you when you said you made that decision to like you’re gonna go to the Olympics?
Ian Burrell
You know, I was probably 13/14 years old. Oh, my God, maybe a freshman. So yeah, I always wanted to do something like that. And I was pretty determined to get there.
Patrick McGilvray
You know, I work with a lot of runners. And one of the things I tell them is like, you know, if you want to be a marathon runner, then you have to become a marathon runner. You know, months before that race. You know, if you want to be a Boston qualifier, then you need to be a Boston qualifier today. So that in six months, you are ready to do that.
A lot of people think they have to, you know, do all this work to become that thing. And then they will, you know, accomplish the goal. But it’s a matter of making that decision, like you made at such an early age, to be a gold medalist, you know, to be in the Olympics, and you got very close to that, you know, you got very close. So tell us a little bit about that story in that arc and how that worked out for you.
Ian Burrell
Um, yeah, so since that choice, you know, I kind of had a love-hate relationship with running because, obviously, as you know, I didn’t become a gold medalist, never became an Olympian. Made a couple of world teams for the United States and represented the United States at the 2012 half marathon championships and then the 2015 World Championships in the marathon track and field in Bulgaria.
And Beijing was where the World Championships were, Bulgaria was the half marathon. So some cool parts along the way, and I had to learn acceptance towards the later part of my career that, you know, everything that I’ve been striving for, probably isn’t going to happen. And I’m not going to, you know, I had to pivot.
And my pivot was to go to law school, become an attorney and help support my family. And that’s where, you know, I kind of had that moment where I said, okay, that that’s what I need to do. And that’s what helped suit my family. But it was difficult. And there were certainly some very depressing times, you know, months of kind of dark, depressing stretches where I had to go through until I kind of accepted hey, you know, this is where my path is going.
And it was actually when I accepted that, that I actually had some of my best races, because I wasn’t racing as tense as I was. So you know, it’s interesting, you make this decision, and it’s a very firm decision of this is what I want to do. But then the folks that I saw having the most success, were the folks that said, okay, I’ve made this decision, this is what I’m going to do.
And then it was okay, now I can relax, let’s just go do it. I didn’t always nail the relaxing part of it. And I knew a lot of guys who also didn’t nail the relaxed part of it. And the guys that could relax and accomplish it and, and still strive towards their goals, with the guys that I saw having probably some of the most success.
And I think I you know, it wasn’t until I had that frame of mind that I actually had some of my better races, which you can learn after years of kind of beating, you’re beating your head against the wall, why am I not racing? Well, then after you have that acceptance of, hey, whatever happens, I’m just gonna go out there and do what I can. And once you kind of have that mentality, I felt like you had I had some of my best races, and that seemed to be a constant throughout the elite running.
Patrick McGilvray
Interesting. So you sort of let go of zero, you set the goal, you know, obviously, you want to be at the top, but then you kind of let go of the outcome a little bit, you let go of the or you don’t have such a hard grip on the on the outcome, and then things become easier.
Ian Burrell
Yeah, yeah, you can’t be you kind of let go of being so results oriented, where you kind of have it in the back of your mind. But with running, you’re always pushing yourself to the limit. And sometimes you can push yourself too far with me, I was pushing myself too far. You learn that as you get older, and as you run more and more, you’ll get better and better. And you’ll need to find it.
That’s why having a coach is so important. Because a coach that understands, hey, this is a person that needs to be pushed. Some coaches say this guy doesn’t need any pushing at all, because if I push him, I’m gonna push them over the edge. That’s why having someone advising you on hey, you need to rein it in a little bit. Or if you’re someone that needs to be pushed, you have a coach that kind of helps in that regard.
And that’s why that’s so, so important. I had a, I think my best coach I’ve had was in college. And he knew not to push me, because I had that deep down. And he knew that if he pushed me, I would go into a tailspin because I’d go over my limit, I’d get sick, I’d get injured. And that would be that actually went back to him.
When I made my pivot to law school, I went back to that coach and we had a great working relationship together. And he was just an advisor who’s someone I bounced ideas off of, and sometimes that’s what a coach is. But sometimes your coaches are your motivator, too, if you need to be pushed your coaches instrumental for that.
For me, that wasn’t a good fit. And I had some folks that were, you know, more of a motivational type, more the pushing type. And that didn’t work for me. But having someone in that corner to kind of keep that decision alive and running. That’s invaluable.
Patrick McGilvray
Cool. And I want to go back to something you said about like setting your goals and maybe not being so you know, having that hard grip on the outcome. Loosening the grip a little bit. And one thing I’d like to remind people is like, Okay, it’s good to set this goal. Let’s say you set a goal of like, you know, qualifying for Boston and, and you work hard and you’ll become that Boston qualifier and then you work hard.
You do the things that a Boston qualifier would do, you train the way they would train, you eat the way they would eat, you know, you rest the way where they would rest. And then when that time comes, whether you accomplish that goal or not, who are you now? Who have you become on the way?
You know, and that’s such a such a important thing that people miss sometimes, because they think my goal was to set out to be a gold medalist, the top in the world, but you accomplish so much on your way to that whether you hit that particular goal or not, you became one of the top marathoners in the world, right? And, you know, that’s an amazing accomplishment. You know, I would never look at you and say, oh, you failed.
Ian Burrell
It took me a while to not not think that way too. And say, look back with some fondness on the career and say, hey, you know, you did the best you could with the information you had. Did you screw up in certain areas? Yeah, absolutely. We all do. But the journey was pretty amazing. So now that it’s kind of run its course, pun intended, I guess. It’s kind of fun to look, look back and say, okay, you know that that was a pretty cool period.
You know, my wife and I accomplished a lot because I couldn’t have done it without her. We had our first child in law school. And if she wasn’t on board with my training, I wouldn’t have made those world teams. She was there supporting me, in many other ways. So without that, it couldn’t have happened. So we kind of look back and say, wow, that was, that was a lot of fun. It was cool that we did that. And that took some time to kind of accept but yeah, looking back now it was, we had a good a good time.
Patrick McGilvray
What would you say is your I don’t want to say like your biggest accomplishment, but like, what’s like your proudest moment running?
Ian Burrell
When I look back, and there were two, two points of my life, where I kind of stopped and finished the race and was just elated for, you know, a couple hours saying, man, I finally accomplished what I wanted to, this was a big goal. Got it? And it was, you know, kind of looked back and said, Yeah, that was, that was amazing.
It was my first state championship as a high schooler. That’s what I, you know, that was kind of the first step in high school is to win that state title. And I remember that was probably one of the biggest positive feelings I had. And then the second was the first time I broke 14 minutes in the 5k. And that was my senior year of college, I think, in Arkansas. I remember getting down with that and thinking, wow, that was truly amazing.
After that, you know, there were some highs, but some real lows when I was really driving. But after that, there was just a lot of positivity. In my law school days, and then post law school, getting my career started when I was still running very competitively. The highs were never super, super high, but the lows weren’t very low. And I thought that was a pretty good way to handle it. Where it was very even keel. And it was mostly just a positive experience overall. More even after that.
Patrick McGilvray
That’s awesome. For you, you said 14 minutes, and then I was gonna I was thinking you were gonna say, like, a two mile run or something like that. And you said a 5k. I was like, Yeah, smoking fast.
Ian Burrell
Yeah. It was a fun day.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah. So you know, I know you’ve run, you know, a 2:13 marathon. I mean, that’s just I can’t imagine that. I did a 2:13 half recently, so I felt good, but like how do you mentally prepare for that? Like, what was something that you do to mentally prepare for a really grueling you know, really tough marathon like that?
Ian Burrell
Yeah. So you kind of mentioned it earlier when you said you know, you become a Boston qualifier before you qualify. And for me, it’s that preparation that gets you ready. I feel that the hardest point or the most difficult point mentally, in leading up to a marathon, isn’t necessarily mile 20 or mile 21. It’s Day 75 of your training block. And you have to get up at 5am.
Where there’s no energy in the world, you have to manufacture all your energy. It’s cold, you know, you’re in Cincinnati, I’m in Colorado Springs, we both get snow, we both get cold weather, it’s 5am, you’ve already had 75 days of high intensity, high volume running, and you have 45 to 60 days more to go.
And here you are, you know, you have to get this run done, and you’re running on fumes or feel like you are at that point. And you have to get out there and do it. And I feel like that’s the most mentally difficult point of the race, once you’re in the race, you’re you know, that’s when it’s showtime. That’s when you have, you know, the spotlight there. And that’s kind of the big test.
So the energy I think, is there, and I think it’s fun, you have folks around you, you have the atmosphere. And you know, if you need to you kind of go back and say, okay, you know, I put in the hard yards before, when there was no one out there cheering for me, and there was no atmosphere. And it was tough. And if I was able to do that, I certainly will be able to put one foot in front of the other and keep on truckin’ until this marathon is done.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, so you sort of treat the race as like as the celebration of the training, in a way.
Ian Burrell
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Hardest thing is to get to a marathon starting line, feeling good, feeling fresh. And you’re feeling healthy and feeling positive. That’s the toughest thing, I think, is the preparation more so than the actual race. And that says a lot because the race is a bear. The race is tough. You go into some different emotions during the race, but training as well. So if you’re able to do the prep, you certainly are able to do the marathon.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah. So what do you do in those moments? When you’re in that race? And you’re feeling those emotions? Or the self doubt, or the fear, or the anxiety? Or the, you get those voices in your head? Like, how do you quiet those voices? What do you, how do you deal with that?
Ian Burrell
Yeah, you simplify. Everything is one foot in front of the other, keep going, keep your momentum, keep springing off your back foot, keep putting out your front foot and just keep going. And you’d be surprised.
With a marathon, you go through peaks and valleys, where you’ll have high points, and you’ll have low points. And if you can get through those low points by just keeping one foot in front of the other, you’re going to have a pretty good result.
And for me, it was the 2015 World Champs in Beijing. I was feeling horrible, from about 15k on. So about nine miles into the marathon. I’m thinking holy cow, this is going to be a long day, it was about 100 degrees on the surface level. And I was getting dropped. That was probably in about 70 of the place. And having people screaming by me.
And you’re nine miles in you’re thinking, all right, well, what’s gonna happen next? And I remember just thinking, Alright, just one foot in front of the other. Let’s see what happens, get to the next mile, then get to the next mile, then get to the next mile and win the miles and break it down into increments.
And as I was doing that, I noticed that people were starting to come back to me. And you would pick people off one at a time. And every once in a while you’d have a Go USA in Beijing, which is a lot of fun to hear. So that would pick you up and you know, you just kind of keep fighting and keep punching until eventually, you know, I’d gotten to about 30th place with a couple miles to go.
And I had an individual say hey, you’re in 30th place and I thought holy cow, how did I get here? And then you just continue to pick people off. You know, at that point I was riding high and ended up being 25th in the world on that day running the Olympic Stadium in Beijing. That was a lot of fun. Really cool.
And I actually timed it right because I went into the stadium right with Chinese guys. So they loved seeing their nation there. I just figured it was all for me. So there was probably about as loud as cheers I’ve ever heard. That was a lot of fun. Boston Marathon was the exact same story where I was feeling terrible, or I was getting passed up, and just kept putting one foot in front of the other and ended up getting 13 that Boston.
But it was amazing how similar those two stories were, it was the exact same race strategy. Were it was difficult conditions, and you didn’t run as fast, but you’re placed well. And it was if those two stories, didn’t hammer that idea at home that, hey, the marathon is something that you’re going to have tough times, you just need to put one foot in front of the other and win a few miles before you start feeling better again, I don’t know what does, because those were two prime examples for me.
Patrick McGilvray
And that I got goosebumps, like that story of Beijing is amazing. Just yeah, I can just imagine being there and feeling all those feelings, you know, running into that stadium, how amazing. But it sounds like one of the things you did, and one of the things that you do to kind of quiet those voices in your head, so to speak, is to get out of your head and get into your body.
You know, you said things like one foot in front of the other just, you know, kick in with that back foot, you know, when the mile so you’re just getting into your body, like, you know, taking out the emotional, mental part of it, and making it more about the physical part of it. Because you’ve done the work. You’ve done the training, you’re there, you showed up.
And yeah, showing up to the start line. I did a 100 miler a couple years ago. And I, you know, I said the whole during my training is like, if I get to the start line of that race, I will have accomplished what I wanted to accomplish. Absolutely. Yeah.
You know, because that’s the hard part. I mean, it was like, you know, 9-10 months of a lot of miles, you know, I put in a lot of miles. And showing up at that start line, no matter what happened during that race, whether I finished it or not. I did. But I felt inside, like just getting to the start line is more than most people would even dream of happening.
Ian Burrell
Right, right. Yeah, I got an intruder. Yeah. Yeah, cute. All right. Give me a quick second. Just as a as a side note, for any of your athletes or anyone else that you coach, thinking that they don’t have the mental toughness or the fortitude to take on a marathon, I’ve taken on a marathon, and I’ve been a dad and being a dad is far more difficult and far more. So if you can, if you can raise children, you can do a marathon.
Patrick McGilvray
I love it. Yeah. And I look at people like you, who are like the elite athletes, and I look at, you know, some of the top ultra runners or marathon runners in the world today. And I can’t help but think that there’s not that much difference between you and I, you know, you made that decision at a very early age that you were going to be a world class athlete. And when you made that decision, you became that world class athlete, and then every decision you made from then on, was easy for you, because you knew exactly where you were going.
You know, and I don’t think it’s like, oh, well, certain people are just built differently, or, you know, you know, have more natural talent. I think it’s more about the decision making, you know, it’s just about the mindset, you know, it’s really about the, you know, and this, this idea of, like, we’ve, you know, talked about it a couple of times now, like, you know, stepping into that identity of a ultra marathoner or a marathon, or a Boston qualifier, or whatever it is, and then all those decisions you make along the way, set you up for that, because you’re you have this clear path of where you want to go.
So it’s not really a matter of like, oh, well, this guy’s special in some way. You know, although I think you know, you’ve accomplished some amazing things. We all have that in us. We all have that ability in us. And it almost breaks my heart. Sometimes when I hear people say like, oh, you know, you know that I’ll post something on Facebook about running or something. Oh, I could never do that. You know, you’ve got you know, something different, you know, there’s something different about you. And I could never run a half marathon or a 10k, or whatever it is, and it kind of breaks my heart.
Ian Burrell
Yeah, I agree with you, 100%, you know, the elite runners are, you’re exactly right, that we’re really no different from everyone else that lines up on the starting line. I mean, we’re in our own heads. Sometimes we’re our own worst enemies, we’re neurotic. And we, you know, make a lot of errors along the way.
But it’s the exact same, some of the same personalities out there. So they’re, I wouldn’t think that there’s really all that much different. And in fact, you’d be surprised. You know, if you walk into a room full of, you know, elite runners, and you say, you know, just a regular bar or something, you probably wouldn’t be able to pick them out from, from the regular fare. Because we do fit in pretty well. And we’re really not not all that different from everyone else.
Patrick McGilvray
They’d be the guys that are drinking more and eating more than everybody else at the bar probably, right?
Ian Burrell
Consume a bit more. That’s probably true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, when you’re running 100 miles a week, it’s easy to eat.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah. So I’m going to ask you this question. And I’m not sure exactly how to phrase it. So I’m just gonna say it the way I have it kind of written here, which is like, in order to perform at that elite level, in order to accomplish these goals, what do you have to believe about yourself?
Ian Burrell
I think you have to believe that you’re going to get it done. You have to believe that you can. If you don’t think you can, then you’re not going to wake up in the morning to go run because there’s that sliver of doubt. You have to believe that your process and that your training plan is going to get you to where you’re going.
There can’t be any doubt. Because if there is doubt, the sport is too physically grueling, to have doubts and still get to where you want to go. It’s too easy to say, well, I don’t really want to go for this run. I don’t want to put in this week. You have to be 100% committed to doing it. Otherwise, you’ll cut corners just because of how physically demanding the sport is.
Patrick McGilvray
It is a physically demanding sport, isn’t it?
Ian Burrell
Oh, yeah. Yeah, the highest impact sport there is you know, football is tough. And certainly difficult. But running, you know, you’re catching, catching your body weight on every step. You go on through asphalt, concrete, trails, hopefully, sometimes rocks, roots, twisted ankles, all sorts of things. So it can be, it’s death.
Patrick McGilvray
And the mental toughness too, I think, is definitely a factor to consider, you know, as far as the toughness of the sport goes. Because you know, you’re not it’s, you’re typically not part of a team of runners, you’re not part of, you know, a group of people that are, you know, they’re like a football player on a team or something like that. You know, you’re out there on your own, and it’s just, you gotta make it happen. You know, you’re not relying on anybody else. And sometimes that can be overwhelming sometimes for you?
Ian Burrell
That’s a good question. I wouldn’t say overwhelming. You know, you’re certainly kind of the hero of your own narrative out there. Because you kind of have to be, I’d say it gets lonely, certainly. Because you’ll have runs where you’re the only one out there because everyone is doing something else or you know, schedules don’t match up and you have to go slog through a 20 mile long run on your own.
But you try to handle it as best you can. In law school, I had two great friends that will come out with a bike every once in a while on the long runs. And hand me water. That was amazing. Those guys are I’ll forever be thankful for them. But there were plenty of days. You know, remember my 2:13 marathon I needed to do my 27 miler on my own out there in Tucson. and Did you know when you’re doing a 27 miler you’re probably averaging about 5:30 to 5:50 pace overall. And that was yeah, you kind of have to play every cliche in the book to keep yourself rolling on that one just because you’re, you’re out on your own.
Patrick McGilvray
It’s good to have those guys hand in your water and stuff, though out there with you.
Ian Burrell
Oh, it’s amazing. Yeah, yeah, if you have friends, and they’re willing, it’s just the energy of them being there that makes a difference.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, I’ve had some really grueling runs where, you know, I’ve been running with other people. And we’ve gotten through it. I’ve had some other runs, that shouldn’t have been so grueling. And I was by myself, and I was just like, This is terrible.
I think having people with you is just paramount, too. You know, I mean, it’s more fun, first of all, but also, it’s great to have that other energy there to help get you through the tough stuff. And that’s why I recommend people join like a local running club or running group, to do the training with other people.
Because you’re, you’ll always find people that kind of run it, you’re about your pace, and then you start to develop friendships and mana mix that training so much easier. And it makes it easier to just show up on those cold, dark, rainy, you know, Saturday mornings, you know, and nobody else feels like getting out there.
Ian Burrell
Yeah, it holds you accountable. Again, you know, it’s that decision process, you want to have one decision that you make. And that’s what I want to do. If I’m deciding I want to be in Boston, then there shouldn’t be too many other decisions left. And having a group that keeps you accountable makes it so that your morning run isn’t a decision. It’s just something you do when you go meet your friends, you have to do it. So it’s not getting up and saying, Oh, should I go that never even comes into play. And the fewer times you have that, the more likely you’ll be successful.
Patrick McGilvray
Awesome. So what’s next for you, you got any goals coming up here?
Ian Burrell
I’m trying to figure out what to do. You know, I’ve been a lawyer here in Colorado Springs for five years now. And so relatively, I guess my practice is still new. So the goal is to continue that. That’s going well and really just enjoying practicing. And I’ve got a good firm right now. But I do need to like to get something else out there. And I haven’t quite decided what it is. And I guess stay tuned, we’re still kind of figuring out what’s going to be the replacement because it is nice to have those goals. I missed that.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, do you still get out and run regularly?
Ian Burrell
I haven’t done a whole lot of running in the past couple years, I’ll do a little bit of mountain biking and try to get out there. I’ve always loved skiing and snowboarding. So that’s, that’s been a lot of fun. And I think I might pick it up again. But maybe we want to have a bit more time to kind of focus on the therapy portion of it towards the later part of my career.
My hips were so tight that I couldn’t sit for more than 10 minutes at a time. So maybe when the kids are a little older and in the you have a little bit more time to focus on physical therapy part of it. Maybe I’ll pick them up, but ya know, we’ll see.
Patrick McGilvray
Well, you live in a great place. And you’ve got lots of options out there. So you know, it sounds like you’re staying plenty active.
Ian Burrell
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, it just kind of takes one of those things to get excited about. So I’m kind of looking for some to get fired up about that and then once we see that we’ll get the family on board and go after that. But yeah, still looking.
Patrick McGilvray
Cool. Well Ian, I just want to say thank you for taking the time to chat with me about your running experience and you know how you’ve managed to accomplish some amazing things. It’s been really fun.
Ian Burrell
Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Patrick McGilvray
Did you know that most runners fail to reach their goals? It’s not because of lack of training, lack of desire, whether it’s running faster or running farther, I believe most runners just haven’t developed the mental toughness they need to get them across the finish line. That’s why I created a step by step training called How to Build Mental Toughness and Become A Badass Runner. I want to show you how to train your mind so you can tough it out when the going gets tough. And the best part, this comprehensive training is yours absolutely free. To get it right now just go to innerfiretribe.com/badass and get started today.
Hey there and welcome to Running Lean! My name is Patrick McGilvray and I am the host of the podcast. I am a Licensed Sports Nutritionist, a Personal Trainer, an experienced marathoner and …
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