Running Lean with Patrick McGilvray
Today, I am sharing a conversation I recently had with my friend Sarah Buckley. Sarah is a badass personal trainer, owner of Persist Fitness Training and creator of Run Strong Cincy - a strength …
Continue Reading about 14. Sarah Buckley on the Myths of Strength Training for Runners →
Patrick McGilvray
My name is Patrick McGilvray, and I’m an experienced marathoner, ultra runner, running coach and mindset expert. I believe mindset is the most powerful and most underrated tool you have as a runner. So I’ve devoted my life to helping runners like you develop the mindset you need to fuel your inner fire and become the badass runner you were meant to be. This is The Running Mind podcast.
Hey there, and welcome to The Running Mind podcast. My name is Patrick McGilvray. And I’m your host, and I’m the life coach for runners. And I teach you how to stop struggling, how to stop struggling and start getting results in your running in your weight loss journey in your life. And it all starts with managing your mind. And that’s what I created this podcast for. That’s what I teach you here.
I want to teach you how to manage your mind so you can create the life that you love, the life that you really want whatever that looks like for you. Today, I’m sharing a conversation I recently had with my friend Sarah Buckley. Sarah is a badass personal trainer. She’s the owner of Persist Fitness training here in Cincinnati, and she’s the creator of a program called Run Strong Cincy.
And that’s a strength training program that’s designed specifically for runners. It’s awesome. Now, there are a lot of myths around strength training and running. And today here Sarah breaks it all down for us. And she explains why strength training might be kind of misunderstood in the running community. Especially in the long distance running community. It’s kind of an eye opening interview.
Sarah and I discuss how managing your mind is the key to every good thing you want in your life from building muscle to overcoming food addictions to running a marathon. It all begins with mindset. I’m actually very excited to share this interview with you. So I’m gonna stop talking now. Here’s my interview with Sarah Buckley.
Today I am talking to my friend Sarah Buckley, about strength training specifically for runners. And she’s going to share a bunch of awesome knowledge with us today. Sarah, how are you doing?
Sarah Buckley
I’m good. Thank you, Patrick. I appreciate you having me on today.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, so tell us just a little bit about you know, who you are and what you do?
Sarah Buckley
Sure. So I am a strength and conditioning coach or personal trainer. I have been in the business going on nine years. And I own Persist Fitness. That’s my business. And I work with a lot of runners. I’ve been working with runners my entire career as a personal trainer, and I have a significant running history myself, which is why I feel very passionate about working with that population. You know, I have been running since I was little. I competed in college, did the marathon half marathon kind of stuff post grad. And when I moved to Cincinnati, I didn’t know anybody. And so of course, my running community was the first place that I plugged in. And as they say the rest is history.
Patrick McGilvray
So what is it about? Well, like why do runners come to see you? What do you see? Is there kind of some of the main issues that they come to see you?
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, so I actually kind of accidentally developed this program, when I was training for, you know, half marathon marathon and triathlons and I started playing around with my own strength programming. Because I was having a resource issue. And that resource was time, I had to get my mileage in. And I love lifting weights. So I didn’t want to quit.
And I also understood how beneficial it would be for my health and my performance to continue lifting. So I started to really take a critical look at my programming and my exercise choice. So that every single movement and every single exercise that I was doing was giving me the absolute highest return for my health and performance as a runner.
And so that program started out as me working with myself and then bringing in the rest of my running community. I have probably trained over 100 runners easily in the past six years, and I have a really strong group that has stuck with me. And so yeah, we are focused on health and performance and optimizing those two, while also accounting for your running programs. So You know, you have your miles on X, Y and Z days, you are tapering for this specific race and the strength. Part of your training runs directly alongside that as a complementary, rather than a competitor story, kind of part of your training.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, I think that’s good that you have that perspective as a seasoned runner yourself, to be able to coach people and train them to get get to their race goals, because a lot of trainers are not, you know, half marathoners or whatever, and they don’t understand what it is to go through that training period, how you peak at a certain point, how you taper and things like that. And so having that knowledge under your belt, I think gives you definitely a great advantage to help people.
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, thanks. I agree. And then just also, I think the running mind is a little bit different than some other athletes. And so I think having, you know, been an avid runner, having been both a competitor and a recreational part of that community for a long time, I really feel you know, connected.
And I feel like I’m in a unique position to communicate kind of the benefits. And I really deeply understand their why. And I can find that, you know, what I have to offer is really strongly connected to their why, it’s just a matter of having that conversation.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, when you’re talking about the mind of a runner, you know, I always say that running is 20% physical and 100% mental. And then I follow that up with saying like, and we runners were very mental, you know, we definitely have a different sort of mindset when it comes to goals, fitness, endurance, all that kind of stuff. We’re a little little out there sometimes. And we like it. We like being out there. Not everybody gets us. So and that’s okay. Yeah, we’re okay with that.
Yeah, so I know that there are some kind of myths or misconceptions about strength training, because I’ve heard a lot of people say things like, you know, you can’t build muscle while you’re, you know, training or as a runner as a long distance runner, you know, you don’t really even need to go work out at the gym and things like that. Have you heard some of these myths?
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, definitely. And these are conversations that I have with my runners frequently. There’s a lot of information out there. And I think sometimes the strength conversation and the running conversation are happening in silos. So neither is really considering the like applications of the other, even though when we’re working with a real live human athlete, as an individual, we can’t operate in silos, because all of these things holistically are forming this athlete.
So for instance, the example of you know, putting on muscle because I’m like, way more, and then I’m going to slow down. That is something that I try to dispel immediately when I’m having conversations with runners, if you’re a beginner, in the gym, if you’re a beginner for strength, it’s very likely that you are going to build some muscle, you are your body and might actually recomp, meaning you might shed some body fat, and kind of put that weight that scale weight back on with muscle.
However, as far as the weight that you’re carrying, muscle is so much more valuable for your health and performance than that other weight is. So if you had to choose between the two, I would want you to have the muscle. And also of course, there is a point of diminishing return.
However, from a scientific standpoint, your nutrition number one and that’s a very important kind of separate conversation would have to be very, very dialed in for you to put on, you know, the maximum amount of muscle especially as a training endurance athlete, because those are kind of competing energy systems. I’m not saying it’s impossible, I’m just saying you have to really be dialed in on quite a few different things to move that needle forward.
And secondly, muscle even if you’re, you know, just for general health, it is healthy, it’s safe. It’s protecting your body so it’s protecting your joints, it’s making you more resilient. You know, your organs are underneath. If you have some muscles in the front, you know, even like a fender bender, having some muscle in your structure can actually protect you from the world.
So it’s not something that we need to worry about. I’ve never worked with a runner who I thought needed to shed some of this muscle, you’re carrying too much around, in seven years.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, that’s definitely one of the things I hear a lot people talking about. Or that, you know, you can’t build muscle as a runner like it just you’re, you know, it can’t happen, it’s impossible to do. Like, what do you say to that?
Sarah Buckley
So it’s not impossible, I think we said there’s some things that would need to be dialed in. And that would be a kind of a nutrition conversation. Just, you know, protein is something that builds muscle. And so if an athlete is interested in putting muscle on, there’s gonna have to be some, you know, kind of broad nutritional guidelines that would need to be followed in order to put muscle on.
That being said, there’s scientific protocols that basically do what’s called hypertrophy and hypertrophy is the scientific name for putting on muscle. So as long as an individual is consistent and over a long enough timeframe, so say, three to six months, depending on that individual, individual variables like age, gender, those types of things. As long as they’re hitting that rep scheme, and that volume scheme, they’ll put muscle on, especially someone who’s training age, meaning how long they’ve been strength training is low.
Patrick McGilvray
Okay, that’s awesome.
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, we call those beginner gains, because you get super strong super fast, because everything is new. So your body is on the fly there. It’s adapting very quickly.
Patrick McGilvray
Hmm. And so how would this help a long distance runner?
Sarah Buckley
Great question. So when we look at the physical demands, kind of zooming way, way in on what’s required of the body to actually run? First of all, it’s very high impact. So most of us who are in the running role, understand that conservatively, every single step when you’re running is three times your body weight, plus overcoming momentum, plus overcoming gravity, and each leg is landing about 1000 times per mile.
So this is a quite a high impact sport, which is, which is okay, that’s fine. But from the strength side of things, we need to look at how we can stay safe when we’re constantly pounding, constantly pounding, and all sports are reliant on one major foundation, and that’s being able to maintain correct position for specific amounts of time.
So for endurance athletes, it’s being able to maintain proper and efficient running biomechanics for a very long time. So you have this high demand for muscular endurance. So strength training is absolutely necessary for an endurance athlete, because simply running does not put the appropriate external load on your body is necessary for a scientific adaptation to take place for you to actually get stronger within those positions.
And secondly, running also requires almost all of the different ways you could move your body, it requires single leg strength, it requires Single Leg level change, where you know, you have knee bending and hip flexion, those kinds of things, it requires both stiffness and mobility in your joints.
And it requires rotation, that’s basically all of the components of movement that the human body allows for. And it’s all happening in an extremely short window of time, over and over and over and over and over again. So if that’s not an opportunity for over usage to happen, I don’t know what is. So we have to train that body to be prepared to do all of these necessary biomechanical things to run efficiently.
And like I said, you might be, it might be an hour and a half, it might be five hours that you’re required to maintain these pretty high level positions of your body. And strength is the only way that you can get to that place.
Patrick McGilvray
Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, the way you’re describing this and the way you’re describing the mechanics of running, just makes it sound like it’s so hard on your body like how could you not want to be stronger? You know what I mean? Because it would just make you be able to absorb all that impact to be able to push through the the repetitive motion and get to, you know, you know, have a successful workout or a successful race because without the strength involved have, oh my gosh, I could see how this could be, I’m could see why a lot of people get injured.
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, absolutely. And I don’t want to discourage people from entering into the running world, I think the running community is one of the best and strongest and most accepting and accessible fitness communities that is available. And I absolutely love it for that. But just like a runner, who goes from one mile to three miles and three miles to five miles, and so on, and so forth, until they’re running their marathon, you have to earn that mileage.
And I think something that people don’t consider is that they think, oh, running is just walking like, but faster. And it really isn’t that simple. It’s highly complicated. When you kind of look at it, you know, the way that I’m looking at it, I’m looking at it from a human body perspective. So I would love people to think about their strength in the same way that they think about their progression of mileage. Which is like, I’m not ready to run five miles, because I haven’t put the base work in.
Similarly, like, I might not be ready to run at all, because I have, I don’t have these kind of specific strength prerequisites, in order to maintain position, keep my joints healthy. You know, and especially for a starter performance aside, the main goal is going to be health and sustainability in the sport. And then we can talk about performance, once we have this pretty significant bass, similar to how a runner, you know, would approach their first say, half marathon or marathon, I don’t think as much work as necessary for maybe a 5k. But you know, the longer distances certainly.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, what are some of those like beginner type of injuries that you see people coming in with? Like, what is kind of the main thing where people are, are, maybe they don’t have the right mechanics, or they don’t have the right strength in the right areas, like what are you seeing?
Sarah Buckley
So I see a lot of kind of random knee and that it’s really nothing, there’s no diagnosis, but it hurts all the time. And it’s probably like arthritis, or bursitis, or tendinitis, these things that are caused from, you know, doing the same thing over and over again. And, you know, consistent loading on a joint the same way over and over again.
So I see a lot of joint stuff. So hip, knee, even like ankle or foot things, is probably the most common. And I have to say almost every kind of pain, I want to say injury, because a lot of it is more just kind of chronic aches and stuff like that is coming from upstream, it’s coming from the hip. And the hip joint is very special and specific to what runners need, it needs to be able to, you know, rotate in it’s ball and socket, but it also has to be strong through its entire range of motion.
Or else you have a very significant energy week, which is going to likely come out in the knee because the knee doesn’t really it doesn’t. Of course, it does something. But as far as when we’re talking about performance and health and running efficiency, the knee is kind of just like following up with what the hip is telling it to do. So the hip isn’t healthy and strong, the knee isn’t going to be able to kind of execute on that follow up, and so on don’t down the line.
Conversely, if you have a lack of foot strength and toe dexterity, it can move up the chain. And that’s when you kind of start to see ankle issues. And again, knee issues, shin splints, I get a lot of plantar fascia stuff. And I truly believe that just just even just gaining some general strength, not even specific to your sport, but just lower body strength, stiffness, and bracing and breathing capabilities in your core will take the load off of those areas.
Because truly, you know, our body is designed to absorb and distribute forces through our core. And when I say core, I kind of mean like, from your armpit to your armpit and down to your hip towards your other hip and then on your back as well. So your torso is your core. That’s where forces come from in your body and that’s where we can absorb them. So the more stiff and strong we are in our center area, the less our joints have to absorb. So just some general training in the beginning can certainly start to reduce, you know, pain and discomfort in our limbs.
Patrick McGilvray
Awesome. And I know that there’s a lot of different exercises that people can do and different strength training circuits and things like that they can do to build up all of those areas and strengthen the hips and strengthen the glutes. and strengthen the hamstrings and calves and all this stuff.
And you know, you get the whole thing abs, whatever. What is like one exercise that somebody could do just like at home since especially we’re all locked down at home right now anyway, like what would be like the one thing you would say that people could do that would give them kind of an overall good strength exercise or whatever?
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, great question. So for all of my runners, regardless of whether we’re in the gym, or if we’re quarantined at home, I prioritize strengthening our posterior chain, which is your back and your vectors, which are the muscles that surround your spine, and they’re responsible for protecting and keeping your spine stable, your low back, your booty, your glutes and your hamstrings, because those are a runners engine, and those are a runner’s brakes.
So those are likely areas where I see energy leaks. So any movement that is a hinge. So one example would be a deadlift, where you have a soft bending of your knees, and you’re pushing your hips back and your belly button down and kind of reaching towards mid Shin, you’ll feel your hips load up, because you’ll start to feel a stretch in your hamstring.
When we’re at home, something that works great if you have a little bit of equipment, you can just stand on a band. And you can hold the band on the outside of your legs and do your hands movement from there. But also, I actually just made gallon weights by using old gallon cartons that I just taped and one of them is filled with sand and basically dirt and it’s a little heavier and more dense. And then the other one I filled like three quarters of the way with water. And it’s a little bit unstable because the water sloshes around, and I secured it with duct tape. It’s kind of whatever. But it’s working for me right now. Awful items. But I think nailing a hinge pattern, being able to lengthen your hamstrings under load is the absolute first priority for any runner, I don’t care if you have been running for two days or 20 years, you have to be able to load your hamstring in a lengthened state.
Patrick McGilvray
And doing that you said to do these bent over hinges or the deadlifts?
Sarah Buckley
Especially, you know, if you were to Google ‘deadlift’, you’re gonna see somebody probably doing it with a barbell, but the movement is the same. And it’s you’re acting as your hips, if your body is a door, your hips are your hinge, and your upper body is the door and your legs are staying in the same place. So they’re the doorframe so your upper body is opening and closing your hips will be pushing backwards as your belly button going down, and you have a soft bend in your knee, that’s the biggest thing I see is that people bend their knees all the way and they do more of a squat, rather than being a very so think about your the knee bend that you’re looking for is the same knee bend that you would have on your landing. When you’re running. It’s not very deep. It’s a tiny degree.
Patrick McGilvray
Gotcha. Like would this be like a Romanian deadlift?
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Romanian, or RDL or deadlift, do like the same thing, but different ranges of motion. So yeah, exactly. Patrick.
Patrick McGilvray
Cool. That’s good. I’ve done a few of those.
Sarah Buckley
Good. Yeah. Good for everybody.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, they suck. No, that’s actually a really, it’s a really good strength training any I’ve found, and from what I understand any type of squatting, like that is going to help a lot for runners just because you’re, you’re strengthening that whole posterior chain also, you know, you’re hitting the glutes, and you’re hitting the hamstrings and the calves and the hip flexors and all that stuff. So that’s all good.
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, and I really like compound movement, meaning it’s one movement that checks a lot of boxes. Yes. Efficiently from like a weight loss standpoint, I really like it because it’s not ice. Like it’s not a bicep curl. Your bicep is like three inches of your whole body versus your RDL, your deadlift, which is literally recruiting all of your muscle fibers for your entire body. It’s quite a bit more of a workout. So from a resources standpoint, I really liked the compound lifts. Not that we don’t hit isolated stuff we absolutely do. But again, if we had to choose one, and we’re prioritizing, it’s gonna be the compound lifts.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, and I think maybe a good rule of thumb for people when they do start going back to the gym, is to avoid the machines because those are very isolating and to do more stuff, just on the floor, you know, on the using the rig or whatever they got there, right.
Sarah Buckley
Yeah. And, you know, I don’t use a lot on machines, I don’t train within one specific kind of like program, I’m more of a hybrid. So I would consider myself working within a system where multiple tools can be brought in depending on the needs of an individual. So I will never say no to machines.
However, like you had said, they’re very isolating. So it’s unlikely that you’re going to get the benefits from a compound movement. And also, it puts you in a prescribed range of motion that may not be what you’re ready for, or be structurally what you have the capacity for. So I know a lot of people, particularly with shoulders that have big time trouble with machines.
So I would recommend having a coach look at your movement. Dumbbells are king for stability. I love using dumbbells. And I would recommend that over any machine any day, for any individual, except for maybe somebody who’s either doing like powerlifting or weightlifting, specifically, but even those folks are going to use the dumbbells for their accessories.
Patrick McGilvray
And I think what you just touched on something that’s so important, which is having somebody like watch you, that knows what they’re doing. And that can help you. I’ve seen some people the gym, the way they’re lifting weights is just terrible. And you’re just like, oh my god, you’re so doing it wrong, you’re going to hurt yourself. And we don’t want that. So having somebody to watch over you to help you to create the movement that works best for your body type for your shape for what your goals are. I think that’s so important.
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, absolutely. And I actually think that kind of hits on another, like myth as well, which is where I hear a lot of my runners saying two things, one of the things that they say is that they want to get in shape before they come to work out. And then secondly, you know, because I think of, and I again, love the running community.
A lot of the reason that people are plugged into running groups, or become runners is because it is so social, and it is so supportive, and it is so inclusive, and I think you can find some of those same markers in group fitness type classes.
And when we’re talking about getting assessed and using your resources wisely, and getting kind of in shape, that would not be the route that I recommend for runners based on what kind of energy system they’re trying to train based on progressions that I would be recommending for them, because you haven’t been assessed on your individual needs. So we don’t know where you stand.
We don’t know what your strengths are, we don’t know where there’s opportunity to grow. And we certainly, you know, the emphasis is on the individual to say when they’re ready for the next thing. And all of those decisions can be made by a coach who’s working with somebody because the variables are, you know, they vary.
So it could be someone who’s coming off of an injury or could simply be someone who’s having a hard week at work and their stress is really high. And there’s really no value in continuing to stress that system. All the way to okay, you have a race in two weeks, so I’m tapering you in the gym. So that’s something that those kinds of circuit, specifically kind of timed circuit based classes, I don’t necessarily recommend those for my runners because it is very depleting to their recovery tank. And it is not adding value to their long term goals, because of the lack of assessment because of the lack of correct progressions and variations for themselves.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, it’s really not a one size fits all, you know what I mean? It’s just like, it’s so individual. So individual.
Sarah Buckley
Communities are wonderful, like I said, for the workout, but when we’re talking about training, just like your training for your race. There’s a difference between going to a workout class and going to train for you, for yourself, for your goals, for your why.
Patrick McGilvray
That’s a very good point. Yeah, you touched on something else earlier that I want to kind of mention, which is you you said like doing these compound exercises are better for your kind of for your, like weight loss goals. And one of the things that I firmly believe, and I think it’s kind of one of those myths about running in general is like if I just run I’ll lose weight, you know, and when it comes down to it, running is not a very effective way to lose weight.
I think exercising in general is not a very effective way by itself to lose weight. The problem, a couple problems with it are number one, people tend to work out or run and then they overcompensate with what they eat. And so they’re just they’re negating any kind of gains they may have made at the gym or out on the road.
So another problem is that the main reason we are overweight, especially here in the United States is that we overeat. And the over eating has to do with, you know, social cultural things. It has to do with psychological reasons, hormonal reasons, but it’s mostly like there’s physical, mental and emotional causes that are sort of hidden, and that have kind of programmed us to be overeaters, you know, and no amount of running is going to fix that.
And so, you know, I tell people, like you have to address the underlying issues, if you want to lose weight and get to your, you know, natural weight, not everybody needs to like fit some perfect airbrushed model version of whatever people think reality is, but like, what is your natural weight, where should you be, if you’re not there, then we need to address those issues.
So you know, but I do, but here’s the thing, here’s where I’m getting to it, this long, roundabout way of saying it, is like running is a part of that, it is a part of staying healthy and staying fit. Running makes you feel good, you get that release of dopamine and endorphins and adrenaline and like it just it’s, it’s a good, it makes you feel good. It’s good for your mental health, it’s good for your physical health, it’s good to get outside and get some vitamin D, get some sunshine, how does strength training play into someone’s overall, you know, kind of weight loss goals for the people that are interested in losing weight?
Sarah Buckley
Sure, so just to kind of touch on what you just kind of left off with, with the running. The reason that, you know, I became a strength coach, and I push lifting the weights so hard and believe in it so deeply, you know, my, my tagline for my business is empowerment through movement is because I truly believe that pursue personal emotional mental growth far surpasses the physical gains that you will have in the gym.
And it’s a way to do something and to have success on something that you’ve never done before. And you feel amazing, you feel like a badass, you are able, you’re you feel very capable. And so there’s all these other, like high value, things, high value words that you’re getting from your lifting experience, that I think are going to again, we can’t work in a silo.
So from a holistic standpoint, that checks many boxes when I start to think about mental and emotional health. And I think, at least for me, I provide a safe, accessible place for people to come do those things. Because I understand like, it can seem intimidating. When you just go out on the road, you’re by yourself. Maybe people in cars see you but you know, you’re very separated from them.
Versus in the gym, you might be face to face with someone who you feel like it’s watching you. And so I think that, that that’s why I’m here to be on that journey with you. And that’s kind of the soft science things, and anecdotally why I believe in doing it that way. But the hard science absolutely supports that as well. So yeah, running in and of itself, weightlifting in and of itself, these are tools towards weight loss, whether you have just strictly an aesthetic goal or a weight loss goal that’s tied to help. Both are great.
So doing the high, you know, compound movements that’s recruiting a lot of muscle. You know, it’s just, it just makes more sense, wouldn’t you rather burn this amount of calories doing a compound lift and this amount of calories, doing 50 bicep curls, and only targeting one part of your body and the rest of your body now is not getting what it needs.
So and also it’s a great way to put on muscle and build muscle is to do those compound movements because you are using every muscle in your body. And so we know that having more muscle is helpful to weight loss. Even though you know muscle weighs more, I say it’s helpful to fat loss, because that scale number could potentially go up but your percent body fat is going to go down.
So that’s something that I was mentioning earlier. And so it’s the quality of the number that we see on the scale. And you’ll look different and you know your body is going to change. But the weight that you are carrying is working for you; it is adding value to your life every single day.
Versus on the other side. Maybe there’s risks that are involved with the weight that you are carrying. And so I think that you again, all those conversations need to be happening. That’s why I said this kind of nutrition is very important. But it’s kind of separate because we need to, you know, be talking about emotionally, why is this happening? It’s not just about eat this, don’t eat that, like, why are we eating what we’re eating? What, what history do we have with food? How do we address behaviors at a behavioral level? And those are probably just manifesting themselves in overeating, binging restricting those kinds of those kinds of behaviors.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, and you know, I call that buffering. And that’s where you’re putting a buffer between your, your emotions and your and your mind, you know what I mean, you’re trying to stuffed those things down, so you don’t have to experience them, maybe it’s a negative emotion, some kind of feeling you don’t want to feel and so you just eat the whole bag of potato chips, or the whole pint of Ben and Jerry’s, or you sit in front of the TV and watch Netflix all day long.
And it’s a way of numbing yourself and feeling good, because you kind of it replaces that kind of dopamine hit that you would get from doing something like working out or running, you know, so it makes you feel good for a moment. But then when you’re done with that, but with that buffering experience, whatever it is, we finish the pint of ice cream, you’re gonna come down crashing from that, and you’re still left with feeling the emotions, and now you’re beating yourself up because you were you ate something you knew that was bad for you.
And it’s actually making you gain weight instead of losing weight. So, yeah, it’s, it’s just such a, there’s a, there’s a lot of factors involved here, there’s no like, you know, there’s no magic bullet. And here’s the thing, people want a magic bullet, they just want to be like, you know, I’m just going to eat these five things and work out three times a week and run three times, and I’ll be fine. Like, and a lot of times, that doesn’t work.
And they need to understand there’s so much more going on under the surface that they have to like, be willing to uncover and look at, it’s like these dark corners of our minds, and our emotions that we don’t want to look at. But once you start bringing those things up, you know, it, it’s not, it doesn’t feel good at first. But once you start to realize you can like feel your emotions and not have to eat over them or, you know, just, you know, sit around because of them. Like you can be such a more well rounded and healthy person mentally and physically.
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, I’ve shared this with you before, but I have a long history of every eating disorder, disordered eating, those kinds of things, different behaviors. And I, myself, I worked on it, you know, big time in a kind of concentrated area, and then every single day, similar to other kinds of behaviors, you know. Whatever your age, I’m in recovery is how I would describe myself, like, you know, so there’s things to work on every single day. But you’re right, it’s so nuanced.
And, you know, for me, it has just been, you know, running, you know, I have a history as a runner, and now I’m more of a lifter, but those two things complemented, my, you know, emotional, well being journey. Because they’re unlike everything else, they’re very constant. You know, one mile is one mile, always. And it’s always, like, accessible to you, you know, even if it’s slower, or even if it feels crappy, you know, it’s still one mile.
That’s similar to how things are in the gym, you know, five pounds is always five pounds. And so, you know, and it’s always just a, you know, something else with running. I mean, I think some people are at the level where yeah, they are trying to beat somebody. And that happens in the lifting world as well. But you know, it’s a way for you to just kind of be with yourself. And also both things are really hard.
And I think it’s important for us to put ourselves in positions that feel really uncomfortable, even if it’s extreme physical discomfort, because that is going to train us to be unable to adapt to emotional discomfort and just be in our feelings, you know, mental discomfort feels like out of control. So, I really think that there’s so much carryover to physical training when we are dealing with like you said, those dark corners.
Patrick McGilvray
Oh my gosh, that’s such a good analogy to the you know, getting uncomfortable getting outside your comfort zone because that’s the only time you can actually learn that’s the only time you grow that’s the only time you expand your consciousness that you expand, you know that you grow who you are, and become you know, a different person when we stay in our comfort zone.
We just stay stuck in the here and now and that’s it and we can never grow and be you know, we have these dreams of like, here’s who I want to be I haven’t you know this person I want to be but I’m not willing to be uncomfortable at all to get there. Guess what? You’re never going to get there. And so it takes getting uncomfortable out on the road when you’re running, it takes pushing yourself farther and, and faster and running up that hill 27 times.
It takes going to the gym, and embracing how bad it’s going to suck for those first few weeks at start doing that, but the results on the other side of that are just so good and so amazing and, and it works with our feelings to let but like when we’re pushing down our emotions and not wanting to feel them because it’s uncomfortable.
We just stay stuck there, you know, in that emotional childhood, so to speak, you know, in order to grow and become an emotional adult, we have to be able to sit with our feelings, experienced them, process them, manage them, and that will allow us to grow when we get really good at managing our, our emotions, man, we can do anything, there’s really nothing we can do if we’re not if we’re willing to feel our emotions.
And I think we get so stuck in trying to stuff all that down. And we have all these excuses why we can’t do things like, you know, go work out at the gym or, or you know, run a half marathon or whatever, we have all kinds of excuses. You know, a lot of it just has to do with us not wanting to get uncomfortable with our emotions. It’s crazy, but this is really awesome. This has been a really cool conversation, Sarah just so cool.
So where can people like find out more about you? Or like, what can they do? I know we’re kind of in a situation now where it’s can’t go to the gym, but what can people do right now to connect with you?
Sarah Buckley
Great. Yeah, so even though gyms are closed, I’m still running. My run has been strong since the strength program over zoom. And I’ve had people who are good with it. And you know, the doors are open here. I’m welcome to have additional participants. We have a couple different times a day a couple different times a week to kind of accommodate everybody’s schedules right now. So you can find information about that at persistfitnesstraining.com You can also email me sarah@persistfitnesstraining.com. And, yeah, I’ll reach out to you ASAP.
Patrick McGilvray
And this is for anybody whether they live around the Cincinnati area or not, because you’re doing it on Zoom right now. Right?
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, and actually, even when we go back to the gym, the way that my running program works is that it’s extremely flexible. So people can come in and be in the gym with me or they can train remotely. So there’s an opportunity for them to have programming delivered to them. And but we are still coaching, um, you know, we’re still communicating about their needs. And so, you know, kind of depending on where you are physically, geographically where you are in your fitness journey, those things will all be accounted for.
Patrick McGilvray
So you can do some kind of personal coaching and assessments over zoom with people, right?
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think it’s everything, of course, now it’s a little bit different with the assessments. So typically, I would have someone come in and run for me and do all of these things. But I’ve been able to do like, what’s something that’s very important for me is to look at as joint health, we talked about the hips stuff.
So that is something that I could get a pretty good handle on over zoom, just by directing people to move a certain way. I mean, I’ve been looking at, you know, human bodies move for seven years, and my hobby is exercising. So I, you know, I’m training with a bunch of people. So I’m looking at people move for like, many, many hours a week. So over Zoom, it’s not perfect, but it’s pretty darn close to what we would be able to do if we were in person together. This is the situation we’re in.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, that’s cool. I’m glad you’re still offering this service to people because I think it’s really important. I think it’s important for runners to get stronger and to realize that it’ll only serve them in a positive way to, you know, get stronger and build that strength and muscle fitness. Yeah.
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, absolutely. And similar to your running group, we have our community too. So you know, you get to see your people. Oh, and I forgot to mention that anyone who’s interested in joining, especially now when we’re doing during quarantine, I will be gifting you equipment that you will need because I understand people don’t necessarily have access to everything and I want to accommodate for that.
Patrick McGilvray
No way. What, you’re gonna like send them stuff like in the mail?
Sarah Buckley
I’ll send them something if they’re not in Cincinnati. If they’re in Cincinnati, I’ll come and drop it off on your porch.
Patrick McGilvray
Oh my gosh, that’s awesome. Yeah. You’re so awesome, Sarah. Hey, this has been really awesome. We’re gonna get you on another time and we’ll continue the conversation because there’s a lot of things I want to talk to you about here that come up here. Yeah. So we’ll do that another time. But in the meantime, you guys go check out. Persistfitnesstraining.com, sign up for one of Sarah’s remote classes. You can do it no matter where you are in quarantine right now. So awesome. Thank you so much, Sarah.
Sarah Buckley
Yeah, thank you for having me on Patrick. I loved our talk.
Patrick McGilvray
Did you know that most runners fail to reach their goals? It’s not because of lack of training, lack of desire, whether it’s running faster or running farther, I believe most runners just haven’t developed the mental toughness they need to get them across the finish line. That’s why I created a step by step training called How to Build Mental Toughness and Become A Badass Runner. I want to show you how to train your mind so you can tough it out when the going gets tough. And the best part, this comprehensive training is yours absolutely free. To get it right now just go to innerfiretribe.com/badass and get started today.
Today I have something special for you, a deep conversation with my friend Caroline Keating. She shares some things in this conversation that she's never shared before. She talks about her competitive …
Patrick McGilvray
My name is Patrick McGilvray, and I’m an experienced marathoner, ultra runner, running coach and mindset expert. I believe mindset is the most powerful and most underrated tool you have as a runner. So I’ve devoted my life to helping runners like you develop the mindset you need to fuel your inner fire and become the badass runner you were meant to be. This is The Running Mind podcast.
Hey there, and welcome back to The Running Mind podcast. My name is Patrick McGilvray. I am your host. And today I have a very cool, very deep conversation with Caroline Keating. And she shares some things in this conversation that she’s never shared before. She talks about her competitive background, she was a competitive swimmer in college, and how that applies and has kind of shaped her today.
She talks about how she really feels about running, she talks about how running has helped her move through some really tough stuff. You know, sometimes we experience heartbreak in our life, we lose people, and how running can help us keep going and move on and move through that and get past it. Really good stuff there, for sure.
But one of the things she talks about in this interview, is this idea of like not believing in yourself and actually having a kind of a negative view of yourself, negative self-talk in how it can profoundly affect you. And some things that she’s done to change that, you know how she finally started to shift that and started believing in herself. It’s a very powerful conversation here. Lots of lots of good stuff here.
I wanted to just touch on that negative self talk for a moment, though. Because our thoughts create our reality. You know, the way we think about ourselves, the way we think about other people, the way we think about the world creates the reality that we live in. So when you constantly are thinking negative and doing this negative self-talk about yourself, what kind of reality do you think you’re creating when you do that?
And it’s interesting, because when I asked my clients, I say like, you know, okay, I understand you, you say that you’re not a runner, you’re not a good runner, you’re terrible at running hills, or whatever the negative self-talk might be at the moment. And say, would you say that about somebody else? Of course not.
Of course, I would never say that to somebody else, because it’s not the truth. Well, it’s not the truth about you, either. But why do we talk to ourselves in a way that we would never talk to our friends or family? It’s interesting, isn’t it. So I want you to do something, I want you to catch yourself when you find yourself saying anything negative about yourself. When you look at yourself in a negative light, I want you to try to stop it, try to catch yourself and just stop for a moment and change it to something positive.
In fact, a little exercise you can do is when you find yourself saying something negative about yourself or thinking something negative about yourself. Instead, say three positive things about yourself, find three things that you can say about yourself, three positive things that you can say about yourself. And when you do that, you’re going to start creating better habits around self talk.
So instead of, you know, I, I’m terrible at running hills, it could be you know, I’m strong. I’m a strong runner. You know, I can take this house, I’m great at running hills, when you start to do that, it actually changes the way you feel about yourself. It changes the results that you get. If you want to be better at running hills, you know two things you can do. Number one, change the way you’re talking about it, and maybe run some more hills. Practice that a little bit.
But as you do this, as you start creating more positive self-talk, you start creating new habits and a new reality. If our thoughts create a reality, what’s the reality that you want to create? And if it’s a negative reality, why would you do that? Why would you want to create that when you have other options available to you? Start creating a better, more positive reality and start creating a better, more positive view. Okay.
That’s all I wanted to say about that. This is something that you can practice again, just find yourself, catch yourself saying these things and change it, find some positive things to say about yourself instead. Cool. Awesome.
Well, let’s get into this interview with Caroline Keating right now. All right, so today I’m joined with Caroline Keating, weekend warrior, Boston qualifier, and all around badass runner. Caroline, thanks for being here.
Caroline Keating
Thanks for having me.
Patrick McGilvray
And I want to hear about your journey. And so take me back to when you started running late. What got you into running in the first place?
Caroline Keating
Well, I was a competitive swimmer in college. And I had a really fantastic junior year. And then my senior year, I had some big goals and I got hurt. I finished the season and I still finished the season pretty well. But shoulder surgery was looming in the future.
And so I had shoulder surgery right after college. And then I tried to get back in and train again. And my dad and I always swam in the alumni meet around Christmas time. So I was like secretly training. And I went to swim in this race and race him and he beat me. And I was like, that’s it. I’m giving up my swimming career.
So he was the one that actually kind of pushed me into running, he had run Boston in ‘95. So he, he kind of was like, you know, I want to run another marathon where you train and run another marathon with me. So I did. So we trained for my very first marathon, which was Columbus 2008 together, it was the coolest thing.
I am one of five kids. And I feel like I’m always gonna have that in my back pocket. And none of my siblings will, like, you know, running with folks for 20 miles side by side, you really get to know them in a different way. So it was really fun. And so he wanted to do this like run, walk plan. So we ran three minutes and walked 30 seconds the whole marathon, I actually left him at the halfway. He used to tell people that she just dropped me, we are together and she just dropped me. But so I finished Columbus in like 3:57 maybe, and loved it. And I was like, I’m gonna do this again. So I signed up quickly for an X race.
And my dad’s like, let’s go to Boston together. So I had this goal of Boston in the back of my head, and I just being the arrogant college athlete, I was like, this will be easy. I’ll qualify for Boston. And so that was the goal. And I just, I just kept running.
Patrick McGilvray
I want to go back to something though. Because you kind of glossed over one thing you said like you were swimming in college, and then your dad’s like, Hey, you should run. And so you went and trained for and ran a marathon. Most people don’t do that. Did you do other runs? Like, did you like to start out with 5k’s or 10k’s or something like that? Or did you just go like, I’m just gonna run a marathon?
Caroline Keating
No, we, growing up we always ran the Thanksgiving Day race as a family. Like I remember running it with my cousins. And you know, like sliding through the water stops because there’s ice everywhere and not really taking it seriously. And then nobody could walk to Thanksgiving dinner that night.
So I kind of did some of that stuff through high school. And then I actually ran the Flying Pig. No, I think I ran the Mini Heart. And then I ran maybe the Flying Pig half in 2007. And then in 2008 is when I actually ran the first marathon. But it was funny because my younger brother was a college runner, he ran cross country and track for Xavier for two years. So he was always like kind of had that in the back of his mind and pushed me a little bit to do it. But then also told me that if I wasn’t running under 6:30 pace the miles and count so.
Patrick McGilvray
So a more competitive family for sure.
Caroline Keating
I’m slightly, slightly competitive.
Patrick McGilvray
So we just have this like, in us, like kind of ingrained in you, you know, from your family that you wanted to accomplish big things, you know, so you set your goals for Boston. And so then what happened?
Caroline Keating
So well, like I said, kind of the first marathon I trained with my dad and then I joined Bob Rocker’s running groups, which is where I met like you and a lot of other folks in the writing community in Cincinnati. And just kind of was naive and just ran and didn’t really know any better.
And would be a little bit disappointed after every time I ran a marathon like flow light in my qualify, like what happened? When I would say maybe like 2016 is when I got more serious about it. And really, like, started thinking about, like, what nutrition I need to be taking? And what does training actually look like? Training is different for everybody, should I be doing higher mileage, more speed work? What do I need to be doing?
And what was hard is a lot of the girls that I was running with, were just talented runners. And so they went out to qualify for Boston. And they did it in their first try, or their second try. And that got a little frustrating. But I kind of being the stubborn person that I am, I just kept putting my head down and like trying to figure it out and just kept training.
And then I remember putting in like a ton of work and ran to run Erie. And I guess it was like 2016. And about six weeks before that marathon I had had really great build up. I was training really well, Carrie Lee, one of the local stars and running was helping me and other badass runner, another badass. Somebody also that like teaches you to stick to your goals, no matter how many times you fail, like never change your goal.
But so six weeks before the race, my dad was actually diagnosed with cancer. And so he was kind of my main driver for wanting to do Boston. And it was interesting because he was at the track running because he was like, I thought you were gonna get back in shape and qualify for Boston, and I wanted to go with you. And so he fell at the track. And that’s actually what took him to the hospital and ultimately found out his cancer diagnosis.
So I was like really emotional going up to this marathon. And felt like everything was going to come together. And in retrospect, I probably shouldn’t have gone. I wasn’t in the right headspace to do it. And I remember, I didn’t qualify, I have no idea what I ran, I finished. But I remember driving back and crying the entire way back. Just feeling like nothing was going right. It didn’t matter how hard I tried.
Maybe my goals were too high. I just wanted to bring good news back to my family and I disappointed them again. And I got back and I went to a family dinner that night. And I remember, I have a picture, I think my dad came down wearing his Boston Marathon jacket from ‘95. And he was like, I was gonna give you this jacket, but you’re just not fast enough.
So, but it kind of like put it back into the perspective like, this is what we do for fun. And it’s fun to have those goals and it’s not going to be easy. And you can keep doing it. My dad always told me that like, once I realized how good I was, I would really be great. And so he kind of like, you know, I felt like I was disappointing him by not qualifying and he didn’t feel that way at all. So I told him I was like, I’m gonna train and you’re gonna get treatment, and around the Flying Pig and qualify, and you’re going to be there to see me do it. And so while he was getting treatment, I would drive into treatment once a week. And I would talk to him about my running and like how much I was doing, and you’d give me advice on what he thought I should do.
He was really big into going to the track and doing mile repeats, which I never did. I hated that. But then I remember running the mini heart. And it was right around the time where he got he was getting really sick at that time. And I ran like my best half marathon time ever. And so I came back. And I showed him my splits. And he was studying it.
And I was like Dad, you know, if you use the rule of doubling your half and adding 5 to 10 minutes, like your marathon PRs and question forget about the Boston time, like, I’m gonna break your marathon time. And he smiled and yeah. And so then when he passed away, I was like, I have to, I have to keep running.
I remember texting my coach that morning, or right after my dad passed away like that afternoon and I was like, I missed my run yesterday. I’m going to run this evening like what workout should I do tomorrow? And she was like the best person to be in my life at that time because she didn’t think that was crazy. She just kind of was like, Okay, you need to keep moving forward. This is where you’re, you know, feeling better about everything that’s going on.
And so I remember running the day after my dad passed away, and I kind of was like, didn’t really feel like doing a workout and just ran from my house in Hyde Park, and ran like past St. Ursula, and then kept going to Eden Park. And then Eden Park, I ran into my niece and nephew, who was there with their nanny.
And the crazy thing is like, they never went there. And I just remember one of the last things my mom said before my dad passed away was like, watch over these babies. And I knew in that moment, like something just drew me to run to Eden Park. And so I did and then when I saw them, it was kind of that moment that I was like, I knew this was the right thing. And I knew my dad was still going to be with me. I’ve never actually told them the story.
And so, yeah, so I just kind of like I think people thought I was crazy to like, want to train that much. My dad was sick, and also continue to train after he passed away. But it was something that like we connected on, and I just wanted to keep doing it. So yeah, so that’s what kind of took me to the Pig in 2017. When I find that qualified.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah. So I mean, you had a few years there where it was. It was tough for you, you know, and I know the last couple of years you did qualify in 2017. Yeah. But kind of what happened?
Caroline Keating
Yeah, so I showed up to run. And two of the guys, Brian and Kevin Peter. So they’re gonna run with me, Brian O’Connor and Kevin. Okay. And Kevin Peter. And I remember getting to the start line. And then Peter asking me like, if I was ready, and I was like, I don’t really want to be here. Because it was like, it was gonna be bittersweet if I qualified. And he was like, well, you just have to show up.
And from that moment, like, the whole race, I felt like I was brain dead. Like I had gone through so many emotions over the last seven months with my dad, that I couldn’t think I couldn’t get in my own way. I just was showing up. And it was incredible. Like the city of Cincinnati came out so well for me that day, like I saw familiar faces the entire way. I felt like the city was behind me.
And when I qualified, Rick Lucan was actually at the finish line. And he gave me this big hug. And he, he kind of like, he talked about it. He hugged me awkwardly long, but he knew that I was gonna, like, break down. But I kind of just knew that like, my dad was there. Like, I didn’t need to call him like he knew he was there. He got to see me do it.
So yeah, so it was a great day. And then fast forward, you know, once you qualify for Boston, that just allows you to sign out. And so I signed up in September. And then a week after I signed up, I got the letter from Boston saying that I didn’t get in because of the, you know, they ranked everybody off. Yeah, yeah.
And it brought back all of those emotions from the last seven months, and kind of put into my head, like, will I ever be able to do it again, because I was brain dead. And my biggest problem with running was always getting in my own way, talking myself out of it. And so I was like, my dreams of Boston are over. It was devastating. But luckily, you know, I went to Kara Boucher’s retreat, I surrounded myself with some really great people. I ended up getting a charity bib, I raised $10,000 for 261 Fearless, which is an organization that, you know, supports women in sport, which is something my dad was passionate about, and I got to run Boston. But I knew I always wanted to go back. So that’s been the goal the last couple of years is to try to get back to Boston.
Patrick McGilvray
So, I mean, an amazing journey so far. You know, and I can relate to a lot of what you’re saying, you know, my dad passed away in 2010. And he actually came out to visit me not maybe six months before he died, and he saw me run the Pig. So he got to see me run a marathon, which he thought was amazing. And I got to see him at the finish line.
And just to have that moment with him and see his face and give him a hug and, and I don’t know, I just felt like I did my dad proud, you know, and I showed up and I did something really hard. I did my best. And I know in that moment, he was just super proud of me. And then it was just a few months later. So that was like, what May? And then like in August, he passed away. So it was so meaningful and powerful to like, have him here for that. So I get it, you know, I know how that is. But so, you know, you finally qualify for Boston then you didn’t get in. So how I mean, jeez, that’s, it’s gotta be hard. It’s got to be really frustrating.
Caroline Keating
Yeah, it was, it’s one of the only times I’ve cried at work. It just brought back like, oh, like, I don’t know, I could talk for hours about Boston qualifying standards and charity bibs, and like all the arguments that everybody goes through every year. But it’s also what makes the race special, like they raise a ton of money every year for charity, and you have to run a qualifying time to get in.
Like, it’s one of the only marathons that has that. And so, I know, looking back, I kind of joke that like, I knew my dad wasn’t going to make it easy for me, he was always putting me up for a challenge, you know, and then I, I ended up running in 2018, when there was like the horrible library, pouring down rain and 40 mile an hour headwinds and 30 degrees. And but it, you know, you, I’ve learned that like, nothing is thrown at you that you can’t handle in the moment, sometimes it feels like your whole world is collapsing.
And some people that aren’t runners and don’t have that goal or like, it’s easy for them to qualify for Boston may not understand what that felt like. But I get it like I get it. When that email comes in you for a moment you let Boston Marathon Association define who you are. And you’re not at the end of the day, you’re still a Boston qualifier, whether you get in or don’t.
And so it took me a while to kind of, you know, I ran Chicago a couple weeks after that, and like stopped in the middle of the race and almost dropped out just because I let it get to me, I let it get to my head and kind of redefine who I knew I was. Yeah, it’s really hard. But I’ve moved on from there. I’ve learned but I can’t let other people define who I am or what I’m going to be.
Patrick McGilvray
Absolutely, absolutely. And when you go after a goal like this, and you don’t reach it, it does not mean you have failed, it means you didn’t reach that goal. It also doesn’t mean anything about you. It doesn’t mean anything other than you know, you didn’t. The clock, the time on the clock was different than what you were hoping it was going to be.
And I think sometimes we get so wrapped up in what these things mean, you know, oh, I’m I’m a Boston qualifier, or I’m not. And that means that I’m, you know, a failure, or a success or a badass, or I’m a loser, you know, whatever. And I think if we just stop for a minute, and think about why we do what we do, you know, why are we running? It’s not because we want to be, you know, we might want to be a Boston qualifier. But that’s not the bigger reason, you know, you’ve kind of alluded to some of these things in talking about your dad and your family and stuff. So, you know, what is that for you? What does that bigger thing like? Why do you do this? Why push yourself?
Caroline Keating
It’s a good question. Because sometimes I question myself on it. Um, I think I got into it, because I had been an athlete my whole life. Like, I always set goals, I always had something to work to, I love the structure of it. I love pushing myself to see, you know what’s different. But I think what’s changed for me over the last year and a half, is that it’s not, it doesn’t matter, like you’re saying like, what your finish time is or how many races you’ve run or whatever, it’s, it’s proving to yourself that you can do something and going out and doing it and making a commitment and being selfish and putting time for yourself.
You know, like I see a lot of the girls that I’ve run with over the years, you know, they’ve had kids and it’s hard for them to get out and run and I love it when they take the time and they do it. And you can tell there’s a part of them that, you know, feels like they’re letting their families down because they’re going out and being selfish for an hour. But it’s so important for everybody to do that.
And so yeah, so that’s kind of like, for me, that’s what I’ve really enjoyed. And over the last like year and a half, I feel like I’ve started running with newer people and trying to get I don’t know trying to get them in to fall in love with the sport, regardless of how fast they are, how slow they think there are, if they’re only going to run a 5k and not a full marathon or whatever they’re going to do. It’s just your finished time again, it doesn’t matter. It’s just about proving something to yourself and being accountable to yourself.
Patrick McGilvray
I love that. Yeah. Do you love it? Do you love running? Do you love the sport?
Caroline Keating
Oh, yeah. I’m obsessed with it. I, yeah, I follow like all of it. I follow all the trail runners. I like all this stuff that’s been going on the news recently with like, the doping and the shoes and like, yeah, I love it. But I love like, I had a college teammate that reached out to me in the spring. And she wanted to get back after having two kids and run the Queen Bee.
And I helped her put a plan together. And she ran her best time prior to even having kids. And so it was like, so fun to see how excited she was. And that’s what I love most about it, like, so I always am like asking people at work like you want to run you want to do this, because like, they’ll say I signed up for this race. They’re like, well, let’s run and they’re like, but you’re too fast. And like, it doesn’t matter. Like if I had a workout or needed to do something like I wouldn’t ask you to run with you that day. Like, I just love seeing people get into it. And you know, being there for themselves and setting goals.
Patrick McGilvray
I was just talking to somebody the other day about this, like helping someone reach their goal as a runner is so satisfying and so much fun. Like just whether you’re, you know, just coaching someone, or you’re pacing them during the race, or just running them in the last few miles or something like that, just to help them accomplish it. Because I know what it was like when I first started. And when I ran my first marathon, I crossed that finish line. And I was like, Holy crap, that was super hard. And when can I do this again? It was amazing. The feeling was amazing. It was really like one of those life changing moments for me.
So if I could be a pacer, and run people in their races for the rest of my life, that would be like a dream job. I joke all the time that that’s like, I’m really good at that. I I know what to say. I you know, I don’t know. I’m not good for myself to do that. But I’m good with other people.
Patrick McGilvray
It’s quite it is that is. Let’s talk about that for just a second. Like why do you think that is? I heard you say something about that. Like, I think there’s some like the negative voices in your head. Yeah, get to you. How do you, well, how do you deal with that? Like, what do you do when that happens? Because you’ve gotten better with that, right?
Caroline Keating
I have gotten better. Okay, um, I think one one piece that I’ve changed over the last year is I went I had a quad injury causing me pain in December. So I didn’t run for like six weeks. And my cousin is a yoga instructor. She owns Peaceful Monkey, in Cincinnati and Newtown. And she teaches this like movement class, which for me, I call it monkey class, because we just like, you just move and have fun and play.
And so she invited me to come. She’s like, we can change stuff around if you need to, for your knee, but I think it’d be good for you. So I came in, you know, you have her husband comes who’s not super athletic, but he’s there doing it. You know, she’s a certified yoga instructor and is like, just fit and super strong and extremely motivating.
And then you have like, some, like sixty year old woman there who can hold a handstand for a minute. And so you have like all kinds of different people. But she’ll have you do things like dribble a tennis ball with your hands and feet, and she’ll demonstrate and you’re, you know, you’re like, Oh, this is easy. And then you try and you can’t do it.
And she’ll say like watch what you’re saying to yourself, and you don’t realize it but like you’re getting frustrated at yourself because you can’t dribble a tennis ball with your left hand. Like when in your life have you ever dribbled a tennis ball as well with your left hand? Like, be kind to yourself, like, it’s okay to struggle.
And then like, you know, a couple of weeks go by, and now you can do it. And I think that like little bit of pausing of just like catching her, like saying that, to me, was super helpful and like changing my mindset because then I noticed myself doing it on runs, like, I’d be doing a workout and I wouldn’t feel the greatest, or I miss set or wrapped.
And that normally would like defeat me. And then I’m like, What am I saying to myself, like, you can do this? Why are you doing this? What’s the reason for it? What’s the purpose of this? And kind of start changing that. But I think the other big thing for me is, so, two weeks ago, I qualified for Boston again, which is something that I didn’t think I’d do this year. I ran grandma’s in June, and had a less than stellar race again, great build up. I’m like, the best build up of a marathon ever, but actually could never pull a marathon together.
And so, you know, driving back, I was like, I’m, I’m done. I’m done running marathons, I need to take a break. But I love the training. So I was like, Well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna go to the ultra world. Like I’ve never run on trails, but I’m gonna sign up for a trail race. So I signed up for a 50k and a 50 miler. And so I’ve just been running all summer, I joined a different running group, you know, just a different change of pace. And not taking anything too seriously.
But I was getting in like some pretty solid weeks, I think I ran three, three weeks prior to Indy I did like 70 plus miles each week. So I had some solid knowledge. Yeah. But I signed up for Indy, because my friend Cory was going to run her first marathon after having kids. So I had been running long runs with her. And we ran the Hoody Race over the summer together. And then, you know, life happened for her. And she kind of had to pull back on the marathon. And I had already signed up. And I was running this 50k. So I had to keep getting miles in. And then I ran the queen bee and kind of surprised myself, I didn’t look at my watch. Once I went in with no expectations. I was like, oh, okay, I’m like, 15 seconds off my best time. This isn’t bad.
And so I just kept running. And I mean, I remember seeing folks at the expo the night before, and they’re like what your plans were, and I was like, I don’t know. But in my mind, I knew I just didn’t want to tell anybody because everybody’s expectation was that I’m running this 50k. But I don’t care.
And I think for me, that was a little bit like eye opening that I’m a person that I’m not afraid to tell people what my goals are. But I think it also puts a little bit of pressure on me, because I then in the marathon, when you get to that point where you have to decide how bad you want it, I start thinking about the person that’s like, Well, don’t go out too fast, or do you think that’s realistic for a goal? Or oh, my gosh, that’s so fast. I don’t know if you can do that. And then I don’t know that those people aren’t necessarily saying it to get into your head. But it gets to me more than I think I wanted to end it.
And then I think, you know, if I have a bad mile, I’m like, all these people are following me. And they’re seeing me like, hit a wall again. You know, like, I’m proving them right once again. And I’m like, and then I’m like, I really don’t think people are sitting at home, on their couches, following me and being like, Yes, I knew she was going to hit the wall. You know. And so for me, like going into Indy, I was kind of just like, I don’t know, I’m just running, I need to get in a 26 mile run. We’ll see what happens. And I felt good. And I wasn’t really paying attention to my watch.
And I remember seeing Jed at mile 23, he was running out to see his brother. And he jumped in. I was like, I’m gonna run a huge PR. And he’s like, yeah, this is incredible. And he like, tried to hug me as I was running. It was like, you know, it was one of those moments where I was like, people don’t care like people, the people that I care about and they care about me. They don’t care about my finish time because they want me to be happy and they want they’re gonna support me and my goals and whatever I want to do no matter what.
And so it was like it was really satisfying because like nobody ran me in. Nobody met me out there. I joke with Sophia and Emily because they came out of a restaurant and like waved to me as I ran past mile 25, but they were super excited because they’re just like we knew you had this and you just had to get out of your own way. And I think a little bit of it was like me letting other people’s comments or the this person that isn’t really there, that I felt like, I had some other people being put on me. And I think once I was able to let that go, I kind of got out of my own way.
Patrick McGilvray
That’s awesome. There’s a lot to be said about just letting go of some of the expectations are the pressure that we put on ourselves, and just allowing, just being present for what’s happening and be in the moment. And just shutting out all the voices, your own and other people’s, you know. And it sounds like that’s kind of what you did you sort of like, let go of all the expectations and the pressure. And we’re just in the flow and just in the moment and had fun. And look what happened. I mean, it’s amazing results are 3:24, right?
Caroline Keating
Yep. 3:24:02. I’m so mad about, no. No, yeah. But it was funny because like, like, people are like, are you excited? I’m like, I don’t know how I feel. Like, I think I feel satisfied. Because I knew I knew in my mind, I could always do it. And I felt like at what I felt like, when I finally did it, I was going to be able to like prove all these people that didn’t think I could do it, you know, like, prove them wrong.
But then I’m like, who am I proving wrong? Like, nobody cares. Nobody, nobody cares what Caroline Keating runs in a marathon. Zero people care, except for myself. And I’ve gotten to the point where like, that doesn’t define me anymore. I just want to run because it’s fun. And I want to keep challenging myself. And like, as I get older, I want to see like what I can do. And I still have goals and want to do that.
But it’s a little freeing that I’m now no longer like, letting that get to me. My mantra during the race, whenever I like started to struggle, I just kept saying because I can, because I can, because nothing like, you know, I’ve I’ve used like, because she could or things like that. But you know, you talked about it of like, making it first, like so that you own it, and then not having it be a negative. And for me, it was like, well, why am I going to try to do this? Well, because I can do it. I know I can. So yeah, it’s satisfying to be here.
Patrick McGilvray
That is awesome. And I want to ask you this, because I’ve heard some things and I just want to hear your take on this. And so it sounds like just just tell me like, I don’t want to leave you with this question. But I want to know, like, what’s changed about what you believe about yourself? Because it sounds like there was some lack of belief in yourself for a while there. And now I think something. It seems to me like something has shifted. So what is that? Like now?
Caroline Keating
I don’t know. It’s a good question. I think. I think I’ve just like the two closest people in my life, outside of dog in my family, and my dogs are my running partners and friends, Emily and Sophia. And we all come from very different backgrounds. And we all have very different beliefs and political views and everything. But I think what makes us work is that we just like we truly care about each other.
And like who that person is and supporting the person no matter what they’re doing, whether it’s them starting a campervan, business or me, you know, buying my parents old house and renovating it, like we’re gonna get behind you and support you in whatever way is necessary. And I think, you know, they’re both very good runners. Like Sophia is an incredible runner are one of the top runners in the city. Emily is, you know, killing it every single year. Like she’s just a solid badass. She won the first 50k she ever ran.
Patrick McGilvray
That’s amazing. Right?
Caroline Keating
And like, they will run with me. They don’t care what race we run. They’ll run my workout. They’ll come and support me at races. They’ll, you know, skip their running, go out to dinner and grab beers. And they’ve kind of just, I think they’ve helped me realize that whether I’m a Boston qualifier or not, I’m still Caroline, at the end of the day, like nobody likes, they don’t care what my marathon finish time was.
Because I asked them when I, because we all went up to Indy together. And I asked them on the drive back, I was like, did you guys think I would do that? And they’re like, we kind of knew, like, we kind of had this feeling that this was going to be it because you just had a different mindset. But they’re like, but to be completely honest, like, we also thought you could just blow up again.
And so it was a matter of like, if you’re gonna get out of your own way, and let it happen. And it was kind of nice, because, again, like it wasn’t, their reaction wasn’t what I think I envisioned of like, when I finally had a big breakthrough, like, there’d be balloons and champagne and all this celebration, you know, like, I mean, they were super excited.
But it wasn’t like, it didn’t change our relationship. It didn’t change, like, who they thought I was. And I think that has really helped. I think, who you surround yourself with, and what they’re saying to you and what you’re listening to, on a daily basis is super, super important. And I don’t say that to like, say that any of the other people that I’ve run with over the years are not the right people. I think just like where I am in my life right now. They’re, they’re there for me in ways that I need them to be. And they’ve changed, like how I love myself.
Patrick McGilvray
Very well said, By the way, very, very cool. Man, there’s something about you, Caroline, that I’ve always just loved. I think you’re so positive, you’re always smiling. Every time I see you out running or running to you, you’re you’ve got this like, glowing like, presence, you know? And I think just saying that says a lot about who you are, you know what I mean? And I think the people that know you? Like we’ve known these, we’ve known how awesome you are, you know, and we’ve believed in you maybe when you didn’t believe in yourself a little bit. So I’m glad you finally caught up with us.
Caroline Keating
Well, thank you. I don’t know that I would say that. I’m super positive. I try to be outwardly.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, well, it’s you’re doing something right. You’ve got a lot of good things going on. So what is next for you? You mentioned Ultra running?
Caroline Keating
Yeah, um, it’s funny, because they asked me last night if I regret signing up for these races. Well, I’m not so sure. Yeah, so I’ve never I’ve never run on trails. So I started doing that this summer. Emily and Sophia took me out and have slowly been teaching me. Anybody that knows me knows that like, clumsiness is a skill of mine. You know, one of my biggest injuries was running into a telephone pole. There were some medical issues behind that, but it’s an ongoing joke. Now that you’re running, you know, on the trails, there’s trees and routes and other things you have to pay attention to.
Patrick McGilvray
But no telephone poles?
Caroline Keating
No telephone poles and so, so yeah, so I signed up and I ran a couple of races this summer. I ran a topo race at Caesars Creek, and Emily and I were actually like one two for the girls. And we came out of the woods and I didn’t know what she was going to do. But I took off just wanting to beat her. And so I can claim that I beat Emily Bronze in a trail race.
So I won that which was kind of fun. I think there were like six women but it was still, a win’s a win. And then I ran. We ran like a cross country 10k and I ended up winning that too, which was super fun and just different and it kind of took me back to my college days of just like racing and not caring like what your time was just wanting to like race. So that’s what I think I’ve enjoyed most about the trails. But I signed up for the Haas 50k which is near South Bend Indiana on December 28. So I think it’ll be like super warm and really pleasant outside. It’ll probably be really snowy and icy and um, if this weather continues, there will be like water that will have to go through.
Patrick McGilvray
Notoriously wet and cold race.
Caroline Keating
Yeah, so, but I don’t know. It’s kind of the adventure of something different like I was saying before like just challenging yourself to prove that you can do it. So I’m gonna do that and then I’m gonna run a 50 mile race and march and Antelope Canyon in Arizona. So, yeah. So that’ll be different. And then I think my amigos, the three amigos, I think we’re looking at running 100 mile race together sometime in the fall. Because why not? Yeah, why not?
Patrick McGilvray
Because you can.
Caroline Keating
Because I can. And I, I feel this like, pressure of not having to run a marathon. Now that I’ve qualified for Boston. 2021. Doug told me I could sit on the couch and eat potato chips if I wanted to until then. I don’t think that’s not really me. But I don’t see that happening. Yeah, part of me, like really wants to like get out and see how much faster I can run in a marathon. But then the other part of me is like, really looking forward to these new challenges and something different. You know, my, my idol Kara Gousha just ran her 50k, first, 50k last weekend. And so it’s yeah, I’m kind of excited to like, tackle something new.
Patrick McGilvray
Cool. Well, I have a feeling you’re gonna do really well. I hope so. But no pressure, like, just have fun. You know, that was one of the things that really appealed to me about trail running and ultra running was that it was just, I’d took all the pressure off myself and just went out there and had fun. And I still, I love it. And it’s like my preferred I’d rather go run a 50k than a marathon. You know, I mean, it’s longer, it’s harder. But it’s more fun. Like, I just enjoy it more.
Caroline Keating
You know, if you want to get out on the trails, over the next, you know, couple months, just give me a call.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, we’ll do it. We’ll definitely do it. I signed up for the Tahoe Trail marathon half, half marathon, which is again, next week. On December. Oh, wait, that’s like next week?
Caroline Keating
Oh, nice. Yeah. I don’t know if that was smart. But I signed up for it to get on trails. So I’m forcing myself to do it.
Patrick McGilvray
Go do this, pace yourself. You know. It’s, well, it is a race. So you can go out there and do whatever you want. But just have fun. And it’ll be awesome.
Caroline Keating
Yeah, the goal is to have fun. It’s a great event. Awesome.
Patrick McGilvray
Well, really proud of you and your accomplishments. It’s like, just so awesome to see you nail this, awesome. Boston time? How many minutes? Like what’s the cut off for your age group right now? So you ran at 3:24, what was the cut off?
Caroline Keating
So I’ll be 35 in February. So my cutoff is two or 3:35. Okay, almost 11 minutes.
Patrick McGilvray
Yeah, you crushed it. So yeah. This shouldn’t be a problem getting in this time.
Caroline Keating
Yeah if I get together rejection letter again, like I? Yeah, I’ll have some words. We’re gonna have
Patrick McGilvray
another conversation.
Caroline Keating
Yeah, exactly. But I think I think the, the, the thing I’d want all of your listeners to take away from this. And the reason that like, I’m so active on social media, and like sharing that part of my story is because I think on social media, you always see all the positives, like, it’s easy. And I qualified, and I ran a PR and I ran another PR, and I did this, and I did that.
And I think, you know, Carrie Lee actually texted me after I qualified for Indy a couple of weeks ago, and she just said something around the lines of like, you set a goal for yourself. And you know, you can do it. And then every time you fail, you just continue to keep getting back up. Because it’ll happen. It may take you more times than it takes your friend or the person that you follow on social media, but it’s so worth it when it does. So for any of your listeners that are wanting to like, have that breakthrough and feeling like it’s time to give up. Don’t take a lesson from every failure, and it’ll all come together one day.
Patrick McGilvray
Awesome. Very good advice. Yeah. Well, thank you very much, Caroline for taking some time and chatting with me today. Where can where can people find you and like, reach out and say hey?
Caroline Keating
I’m on Instagram which is probably my preferred social media platform. And my handle is @currentmile with no spaces. And I picked currentmile because I’m trying to pay attention to like living in the moment and the mile that you’re in. So being in the current mile,
Patrick McGilvray
Run the mile you’re in. I love it, run the mile. You’re awesome. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks, Caroline. We’re gonna get you back here after Boston to see how that went. For you can’t wait. But thanks again for the conversation today is really awesome.
Caroline Keating
Yeah, thank you.
Patrick McGilvray
Did you know that most runners fail to reach their goals? It’s not because of lack of training, lack of desire, whether it’s running faster or running farther, I believe most runners just haven’t developed the mental toughness they need to get them across the finish line. That’s why I created a step by step training called How to Build Mental Toughness and Become A Badass Runner. I want to show you how to train your mind so you can tough it out when the going gets tough. And the best part, this comprehensive training is yours absolutely free. To get it right now just go to innerfiretribe.com/badass and get started today.
Hey there and welcome to Running Lean! My name is Patrick McGilvray and I am the host of the podcast. I am a Licensed Sports Nutritionist, a Personal Trainer, an experienced marathoner and …
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